Behind the Scenes: Strategies for Building Effective Relationships with Recruiters - Keith McLoughlin, Director at Connexus Recruit

Owen Murray (00:02)
Keith, how are you? Welcome to the show. Hi, Owen. How are you doing? Thanks very much for having me on. Looking forward to it. Not at all. How is your week going? Yeah, not too bad. Not too bad. Busy as always, but all in a good way, I suppose. Brilliant. That's great. Good to be busy, right? Yeah, that's it. Living for the weekend, Keith. Look, really excited to have you on the show.

Yeah, I really wanted to hear sort of about you and a bit about your background. It would be great for our listeners, Keith. Yeah, no problem at all. Well, yeah, from the personal or the career perspective, but I'll start from the start, I suppose. So I'm, yeah, look, 34 years of age from Talha, marriage to the wife, Joanne.

living out in Kingswood just ourselves and the little doggy for the moment and the baby on the way in the next few months. Oh, wow, congratulations. No problem, yeah, so it's, yeah, time's about to change, but that's the personal side of it. Other than that, from a career perspective, I've been working in recruitment now for the last 10 years.

started off, usual story came out of college, went to Australia for the year, came back and typically kind of fell into the recruitment space, as most of us tend to do. So yeah, kind of typically fell into recruitment as most people in the industry tend to do. We started off as a resourcer for a company called Pentasia Recruitment.

Pentasia are specialists within the betting and gaming space. I was in their Irish office, started off as a resource, or as I said, doing all the groundwork on the candidate side, and then worked the way up to basically leading the Irish office for them. Ended up being a bit limited. There wasn't too much growth opportunities there unless I was going to make a move over to London or make a move to Malta. So decided ultimately then to...

to make a move. So Graham, Morris founder of Kinexis, he dropped me a note on LinkedIn and met him for a coffee. And I suppose the rest is history. So I started off with Graham when Graham had the brand Kinexis set up a year or two. And then I joined as his first hire. And ever since then, we've been building out the brand and building out the team and the company and everything in between there. So.

Yeah, all going well so far, five years in and yeah, plenty to look forward to now. Fantastic. It's funny, isn't it? Anyone I speak to in recruitment always say they fell into recruitment. It's the day to day story. I don't know why. It's probably not something that people kind of typically think of, say, when you're going through college years and things like that, you might have different plans. I know from my

I was thinking more leaning towards marketing or something like that, did a business and management degree. But eventually came out of it and struggled to find any kind of internships within the marketing space, ended up working on a couple of sales jobs and came to recruitment and just loved it from the start. I had a bit of experience selling printer cartridges over in Australia when I was there and that was very painful.

I found sales like that was trying to sell to people that just did not want to talk to you. Whereas then all of a sudden when you start some recruitment and people actually enjoy the conversations and want to engage with you and things like that. So yeah, it was a match made in heaven from the start. Very well put. As far as I know, there's a degree you can do in recruitment. I haven't looked too much into it, but yeah, good to see.

Yeah, and actually my next question was going to be around what inspired you to get into recruitment. So would you mention there that you loved it? What do you love about it? Yeah, pretty much. So like inspired probably wouldn't be the right word for me. But I suppose when I was like, I'm big into my sports and I'm big into me, like I worked in paddy power for like four years on the retail side of things throughout college and things like that. So, you know,

had a decent bit of knowledge about the kind of betting and gaming space. And then I seen Pentasia were advertising for a recruiter working in the betting and gaming space. So I thought that could be a decent segue into that. So that was kind of what got me in there, got my foot in the door, I suppose, at the start. And then I said, once you start getting used to the industry and learning the tricks of the trade and stuff like that. I think a big thing for me is I enjoy

speaking with people, I enjoy building relationships and things like that. So whether that's on the candidate side, which was obviously a lot easier at the beginning, then the client side, that kind of came over over time. But yeah, I think it's just it's the constantly busy, it's the fast paced environment, it's the highs as much as it is the lows. It's the excitement that goes with it on the agency side anyway.

Yeah, absolutely. So for our audience out there, if anyone wants a career in recruitment, Keith's your guy to take the advice on. Fantastic. And Keith, what are you currently working on that excites you the most? I suppose for us, so that connects us, as I said, we've been, we're still at that kind of young phase. We're going kind of seven years or so now at this stage. So we're still.

You know, we're still competing out there, you know, we're still getting our face in front of the big businesses in our industry and things like that. So I suppose it's the competitive nature of it. The competitive nature of it is the most exciting part of it. And, you know, it's working on kind of multi -project, it's helping organizations like what we try to do as much as possible, which some other firms don't do, is be a real kind of consultant.

in the space. So being able to advise companies while providing market insights, providing whether that's on salary guides or whether or not on what their competitors are doing in the space and things like that. So it's all in all, I suppose, it's the kind of well -rounded consultation approach really.

I was going to say that it's more the consultative piece. I think that's where that probably leads into to kind of this type of podcast as well. Whereas I think there's a lot of people out there that don't actually realize that element of it. Like, I mean, you know, people have their aspirations about recruitment companies and things like that. And I think from a candidate's perspective, they sometimes really don't realize that, like, we don't we don't work for that business we're representing them towards, you know, with it.

that middle person trying to help both sides. So, you know, we work for that candidate as much as we work for that client. And as I said, that that kind of understanding of the process isn't exactly as widespread as you'd think.

Absolutely, yeah. And it kind of leads really well into my next question. What are the misconceptions about recruitment? So that's it. I mean, in terms of misconceptions, I think it's, you know, it's what the one of the big misconceptions is what can a recruiter actually do for a candidate? You know, you know, I think it's like any industry, there's there's good recruiters and there's there's bad recruiters. And it seems that there's quite a lot of negativity that you do see.

When it comes to the industry itself, a lot of people see them that recruiters are just trying to get bums on seats and don't care unless they're making that placement, they're making that commission and they'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. But I mean, it's not really the case. I said the ideal scenario for us is that if we're getting that perfect industry match with a candidate, a perfect cultural fit with a candidate.

and being able to share that then with the clients that we work with. So I think that's probably the biggest one for me is the level of work that actually goes in the background when it comes to, you know, helping people with CVs, helping people with applications, helping people with the interview prep side of things, the process from start to finish. And look, as I said, the good recruiters out there, candidates should get that sort of positive experience. There's obviously, you know,

Not everybody is as thorough as others when it comes to processes. But yeah, I think if you if you find a good one, they can definitely be very beneficial to anybody looking for a new job. I think it's hard to find them right. And my advice to anyone is and I said this to my clients as well, that if you do find a good recruiter, hold on to them. You know, they have your best interest at heart. And, you know, and the best recruiters will match the.

the job seeker to the right company, the right culture. They'll know their client very well. You know, they'll have met face to face. As you said, that we're consultative. You're you're consultative to your your clients, but you're also consultative to your candidates. And it's important for a recruiter to be honest with a candidate to say, you know, maybe I can't help you here.

And this is not what my business actually recruits for, which is fine. Absolutely. And I think what it boils down to as well, there is that kind of specialist recruiter versus the generalist recruiter as well. If you go to a generalist, you know, Main Street, High Street recruitment company that does a bit of everything in the locale, like are they really going to like from our perspective, we specialise, we do a lot of work within the marketing space and things like that. It's like,

you want to deal with a recruiter that knows the difference between your paid search ads and your paid social ads versus your social media campaign planning versus your content management and stuff like that. So if you're working with a specialist recruiter that knows your industry space, then they're going to know what roles are going to be best suited to you and hopefully won't waste your time with others.

But we'll find that kind of match. And then as I said, you go into the details around that kind of cultural piece and company face and stuff like that then from there.

Absolutely. And I suppose like what are the signs of a bad recruiter? So what are those sort of red flags that candidates, stroke job seekers should look for when when they are speaking to recruiters? Yeah, well, look, the lack of knowledge is a big red flag from my perspective. Like if if I was advising any sort of candidates, I'd say if you called up a recruiter about a job and they couldn't give you the finer details around, you know.

working arrangements around the package on offer around the ins and outs of the day to day and the role in terms of the team it's part of who it reports to. It's all quite fine details, but I mean, if you're dealing with a recruiter that doesn't know them details, then you'd be quite skeptical of going for that role. So you're kind of going in blind. Whereas if you're working with a recruiter that...

that clearly had his brief and call or brief and meeting with a hiring manager before they'd taken on the vacancy and knows all these ins and outs, then you'd be a lot more confident putting your CV forward. You'd be a lot more confident going towards that interview then. And you'd be in a much better space then. There shouldn't be too many surprises then when it comes to the interview scenario. But outside of that, it's a...

It's probably the engagement and the communication side as well. And I think this work this works. This works both ways from a candidate's perspective as well as a recruiter's perspective. And there's in my mind, there's absolutely zero reason why any recruiter wouldn't get back to a candidate on updates, you know, being able to keep somebody informed as to where things are at with a process. You know, if we're waiting on feedback, if we're waiting on.

on responses or answers or offers or anything. Yeah, you do hear stories of recruiters kind of ghosting candidates and things like that. I just don't understand that, you know. But it does work both ways, as I said, like you do get that quite a lot with candidates doing a bit of ghosting themselves, whereas, you know, a recruiter isn't gonna...

isn't going to mind if somebody doesn't want to go for a job. There's no reason why that kind of transparency shouldn't shouldn't be there. But as I said, I think a big red flag for me with a recruiter would be if they're if they're not engaging with you, if they're not coming back to you on your emails, if they're not responding to your calls. Yeah, I'd be pretty, pretty weary in that case. I think as well, it's so important to have an honest conversation at the beginning of any process with a recruiter, right? When you're a job seeker.

And, you know, if you don't have that honest conversation at the beginning, it can trip you up then at the offer stage, right? So, for example, discussing salary at the beginning of a process is so important because if you don't discuss it and then you, the candidate interviews for the role gets the offer stage and then the client turns around and says, you know, for example, this is, this role is 50K, the client, the candidate was looking for 70K.

then that's a big waste of time from a candidate's perspective and a recruiter's perspective and the company that they're going into as well. So it's really important to have that honest conversation at the beginning. As I said, I think from a candidate's perspective, that openness and that transparency is the best way for both parties. That way, let the recruiter know.

where you're at on the salary side of things, give them the finer details in terms of your package, if you get the health cares, if you have the pensions, if you have the 20 % bonus. I mean, to be honest with you, most of us working in this space, we know that anybody looking to move a move role is looking for at least the same, if not more than what they're on at the moment. I mean, in 10 years, I could probably count on one hand the amount of people I've seen leave a role and join a business for less than what they're on at the moment.

So even when I'm speaking to candidates that are telling me, you know, OK, I'm on 50, but I'd be happy at 40, you'd still kind of want to dig into those details as, OK, well, why would you leave for less than what you're on? That would affect your, you know, that'll affect your lifestyle, that'll affect your your monthly earnings and things like that. So you'd always want to kind of dig as deep as possible in those areas. And as I said, when we get jobs on, then we know not to waste your time with jobs that are coming in less than where you're at at the moment or.

that aren't going to be at that right sort of next step for you as well. So it is, it's vitally important. And I mean, from our side as well, we, I know we try, we push quite strongly on that transparency with the client as well, because there's absolutely no point in going through a whole interview process of two or three stages and then for there to be a massive disconnect then on the salary side at the end. So yeah.

all recruiters, I presume, do this or should do this. But in terms of having that openness, like sending on the package details with the CV when you're sending it across, letting them know what the expectations are. And, you know, if a client looks at that CV and thinks, you know what, they're looking for too much on the salary side versus the experience that they have, that's no problem at all. We'll move on. We'll focus on other candidates and nobody's wasting anybody's time. But it's, yeah.

Look, when we're talking about the job market, it's salary is usually top of the top of the requests, I suppose, when when you're talking to any candidate. So it's important to get it right. It is. And but it's not everything, right? So as you said, there you had a really good example about the candidate that is happy to interview at 40k, but they're on 50, right? Because it may be the company or the culture or something that's attracting them to that particular position. That's fine.

them just to make sure you have that open, transparent conversation at the beginning and make sure you know that the candidate has voiced their opinion on what motivates them to actually interview the position. There's so many different variables that would contribute to it. You know, like the, you know, it could be a better

closer location to them and might be a more flexible arrangement or something like that. It might be an industry that they've been trying to get into for a long time. So there is plenty of different variables, but as I said, just have that kind of open and transparent conversation at the start to make sure that everybody's on the same page. We talked about that sort of really open and transparent conversation at the beginning, but is there anything else from a jobseeker's perspective that they should be doing to maximize that relationship between?

themselves. There's plenty. Yeah. As I said, like I think the big thing, the big thing for me and the biggest recommendation would be that kind of engagement and the communication side of things. I mean, like if a recruiter is reaching out to you to try and, you know, follow up on a process or follow up on a CV or an interview or anything like that, I think use it to your advantage. You know, like a big red flag for any recruiter is when a candidate isn't engaged and when you when you have to chase for updates, when you're.

chasing for feedback on interviews and things like that. I mean, straight away, we automatically start thinking, OK, they're not interested in this position. So, I mean, it can definitely go to your advantage. And I think other than that, it's, you know, from a candidate's perspective, use your recruiter to your advantage. I mean, like, especially if you're dealing with a specialist recruiter, they're going to have so much insight into industry trends. They're going to have so much insight into...

you know, teams in terms of organisational structures within these businesses that we're working with. There's so much information that you wouldn't even realise that could benefit you going through a process. So, as I said, it's a completely free service for the most part when it comes to a candidate's perspective, but it can be massively beneficial. And I suppose there's just one example that comes to mind straight away. It was a conversation I had with a candidate just yesterday. It was a...

We had actually placed a candidate as a digital marketing manager with a client of ours about four years ago. And it was a very good match. She was there for kind of three, three and a half years or so and went through a full process, a close process with ourselves. She was very, she was delighted with how she was managed by Connexus itself, left us a glowing review and stuff like that. And then she eventually started hiring within her role and continued to use us. But...

She came, she eventually left that role after three and a half years and moved on to a new opportunity that she applied for directly. So, and now after four or five months, she's coming back to me because it's not the right fit for her. So she wouldn't have gotten all of the inside scoop on that role because she applied directly to it. She wouldn't have had the support throughout the process via a recruiter because she applied directly and she was dealing directly with the business. The business was selling her a dream.

in terms of this new role. And as I said, she's been there about four or five months and she came back to us there yesterday now saying that from here on out, she wants to make sure she goes through a recruiter so that she's represented as best as possible and that she gets as much inside scoop as she can before making a decision on her next move. I love that example. It just shows you the consultative nature of an agency recruiter, how they can...

make sure that the job seeker has all that information so that they can make that informed decision at the end of the process, right? That's a really key to what are your top tips for anyone? For me is everybody needs to put themselves out there. Like, I mean, it's a very candidate heavy market more often than not. You can see when you make an application, a lot of times you can see all 200 applications have gone forward for that role. And.

You'll have to start thinking to yourself, OK, how can I stand out from the crowd here? And a big part of how you do that is your attitude towards the whole approach. I said, you want to make sure that you're in front of that recruiter. You meet them, go for a coffee, chat through the details of the role, get as much information as you can.

you know, work with the recruiter on tailoring your CV, then for that role, for that application, listen to their advice when it comes to interview preparation. And I think a lot of the time what we kind of find at the moment is kind of the younger generations and maybe people going for more kind of executive level roles with us. There's a real kind of shyness there in people nowadays. I don't know whether it's an effect of COVID or I don't know whether it's what exactly it is, but there.

definitely a lack of lack of confidence in people that are at that kind of whether it's millennials or gen Z's or whatnot. So I think a lot of people kind of hide behind the application. They hide behind their emails. They don't be as upfront or as engaging as maybe generations would have been beforehand. So if you want to stand out from the crowd, then, you know, be that person.

put yourself in uncomfortable positions to have these conversations, talk to people around you, get as much advice as you can. And when you get advice, as you said, if it's coming from the right sources and the right side of recruiter, use that to your advantage as much as possible. Second then, it probably leads into it as well. It's just on that kind of preparation side of things.

And for any hiring manager, for any recruiter that's managing candidates throughout a process, you know, like you need to prepare. Even the most senior level candidates need to prepare for an application. They need to prepare for their interviews themselves. It shows so much. A, it gives you the insight into the company you're applying to and the person that you're going to be reaching out to. And I mean,

be then, like one of the big things for any higher manager is they want to give jobs to people that want them jobs. So if you show the level of preparation that you've done, if you can like rhyme off exactly what the business does, discuss your knowledge of the company, the role, all the insights, it's just going to show a real eagerness. It's going to show a real, you know, determination that you want this job. And as I said,

So many candidates don't do that level of preparation and it'll just help you kind of stand out from the crowd that bit more. Absolutely. Yeah, that's it. It is about beating the competition essentially, isn't it? There is an element of thinking about number one during an interview process because I'm kind of forgetting everyone else in the process. You've no power over that. Yeah. And just to concentrate on preparing, as you said, but you also said something really significant there. And I think it is affecting...

no candidates in the process, no since COVID is actually meeting people face to face. It's so, so important still. And, you know, hiding behind emails, as you said, almost even hiding behind things like Zoom and, you know, video calls. Actually, if you go meet someone, your relationship is going to be so much better. Like a quick coffee for 20 minutes is going to actually help you and your recruiter. And even when you go back to your client and,

I'm sure you'll agree with this. You can say, you know, I met this person last week. I actually physically met them for coffee. So it makes it makes them sound stronger on you as a recruiter. Yeah, actually, it's it's it's it's ridiculous how much more information you get and how much more detail you get from a half an hour coffee with somebody versus a versus a phone call or a Zoom call. And again, if you're going out there and meeting that recruiter.

It just shows that determination again. It shows that urgency. It shows I want this job or I want to be represented by you guys. So I'm going to put my best foot forward in any scenario I can. And as I said, that's half the battle sometimes when we're representing candidates towards roles. I agree more, Keith. Can you share a book or podcast or resource that has had a significant impact on you? All of your...

podcast zone, of course, I'll start off with them, give you a bit of a big head. But now I go through a whole mix of podcasts, to be honest, on the commuting or when I'm there, when I'm at home and stuff like that. To be honest, I'd probably have a bigger split towards, you know, the sports podcasts and stuff like that as a bit of a bit of escapism. But.

I do listen to the Stephen Bartlett's diary of a CEO. I think he's plenty of good episodes there. And I listened to one that was like the founder of Shopify not so long ago and hearing their story and their background and things like that. It was incredible where they came from. But yeah, that'd be kind of it. And then we're part of, I know we're part of like the recruitment network and stuff like that. So I do listen to kind of industry based podcasts from...

from guys that are pretty tried and tested over the years and just hearing, you know, I can reflect from my career where I'm standing versus what other guys have gone through and stuff like that. And it's definitely, it definitely helps on that side of things. Is there anything else you want to share with our listeners? One other element that probably didn't touch on in terms of putting yourself out there and making yourself as, you know, as relevant to roles as well is people's online profiles.

I think LinkedIn as a tool is unbelievably beneficial to people that are searching for roles. Like obviously now you can put on your open to work boxes and things like that if you're actively considering options. But I'd say put it, treat that as your online CV. Recruiters for, you know, from our perspective, I know 85 % of our placements come by us directly sourcing candidates versus job adverts. So, you know, we're...

running deep searches for candidates that tick all the boxes that our clients are looking for. And unless you have a LinkedIn profile that outlines all of your experience and outlines what you're doing at the moment, you know, we're not going to find you. And basically, so I think use those sorts of tools to your advantage. And even when I get a CV, more often than not, if I see a CV coming in, one of the first things you do is check out the the online profiles and stuff like that as well.

So I think it's very important for anybody looking for a new job that they do have that as up to date as possible, as relevant with all of your recent career, your recent experience. If you're doing any additional work on the outside, if you're doing courses in analytics, if you're doing extra courses on Google fundamentals, if you're doing courses in data or UX or anything like that, that's all relevant towards applying for new jobs as well. So make sure it's as up to date, as detailed as possible.

And yeah, with a bit of luck then you'll be getting plenty of approaches from there. Fantastic. And I think there's a common theme we've spoken about, Keith, is to be visible, right? You know, put yourself out there, you know, make sure you're posting on LinkedIn, make sure you're visible on LinkedIn as well. And, you know, the more visible you are by doing all those things, the more of a chance you're giving yourself a secure and the right role.

It's been a pleasure, Keith. Thank you so much. There's been so much good content there for our listeners. Thanks for having me. Thank you so much for being on. Hopefully it wasn't too painful for any listeners listening. And yeah, hopefully it gives a bit of advice or a bit of help to anyone listening that's on the lookout at the moment. All right. Thanks, John.

Thanks Keith, all the best.