Made redundant! What’s next? with Leon Nussbaumer - Content marketing manager, entrepreneur & podcaster

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Hey everyone, welcome to the Interview Expert Podcast.

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I'm your host Owen Murray, a corporate and candidate interview coach, podcaster and psychometric

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testing expert.

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Thanks to each and every one of you who come back to listen, learn and grow.

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This podcast is where hiring managers from diverse backgrounds share their insights to

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support you on your interview journey.

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Join us as we explore tips, strategies and real world experiences to help you ace your

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next interview and land your dream job.

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And welcome to today's episode, Made Redundant, What's Next?

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I'm excited to have a special guest with me today, Leon Nussbomber.

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Leon is an established content marketing manager, an entrepreneur and he is also host to a very

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successful podcast called Leon and the Professionals.

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In this episode, Leon and I dive into navigating life after redundancy.

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We share practical insights and tips on how to approach this transitional phase with

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resilience and determination.

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Whether you're facing redundancy or supporting someone who is, stay tuned for valuable guidance

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on what steps to take next.

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Let's dive in.

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But before we get into it, I have one favour to ask you.

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The majority of people who watch and listen to this podcast have yet to hit the follow

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or subscribe button.

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I can't tell you how important this is.

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If you hit that follow or subscribe button, I promise I will get more guests that you

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want to see.

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And thank you for lending me your ears, whether you're walking, running, at the gym, walking

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the dog, whatever you're up to.

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Thanks for listening to the interview expert.

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Leon, how are you?

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm good, man.

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And you?

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Thanks for having me here.

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I have to learn how to.

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How are you?

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How's your week going?

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Week is today is Wednesday.

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So I'm currently looking after my little one four days per week, full time.

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My partner is back home.

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And unfortunately, or fortunately, some say he only has crashed three days per week, Wednesday,

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Thursday and Friday.

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So today is the start of my weekend, actually.

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Very good.

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Yeah, that's great.

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I'm a bit like yourself, Leon.

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I have two kids.

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So balancing kids with work can be challenging.

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How are you finding us?

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How do you find balancing sort of it's maths, right?

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And your work?

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Well, I'm luckily out of the job market at the moment.

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I am looking after and I have professional plans, obviously, that I need and have to

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work on.

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Honestly, the four days that I'm looking after him, it's just to look after him.

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I don't have much time to work or do anything else because we have to keep them busy, entertain

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and make cognitively challenging as well.

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So it's all about him, the chores of the house and just trying to stop him from crying and

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having tantrums.

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It happens mostly outside.

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So I'm often outside if the weather allows.

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So there is no balance when I'm with him.

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And then I have two or three days to focus on me and my professional stuff and my health

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if I want to go to the gym or things like that.

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That's how life is at the moment.

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It's not very balanced, to be honest.

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Yeah, I know I have two kids, three and five and it's new enough for me.

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And I still find it challenging to balance both, but it's all good fun, Leon.

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It's great to be a dad.

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It's good to meet someone like yourself who has a kid as well.

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So you can empathize with the lack of sleep maybe that the two of us have had over the

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last couple of years.

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Now I understand why people put that they are parents on their LinkedIn profiles because

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they need to make people understand that I'm not sleeping and I might be late.

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It shows a bit of personality, I think, as well.

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And there's a lot of people out there with kids and it's hard to balance sometimes.

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So there's a bit of empathy there, I think.

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100%.

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Yeah, Leon, it would be great for our listeners just to get to know you a little bit more.

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Can you tell me your story?

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Oh, wow.

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My story.

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I'll try to do that as quick as I can.

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So Leon, originally from Brazil.

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Brazil, I have been living in Ireland for the past 14 years, came here to learn English

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and go back to Brazil to try to apply to jobs in multinationals.

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And I didn't have English at the time, but I loved here and decided to stay.

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And it was the place where I kind of found a career trajectory, but also got to know

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my wife and started to build a family now.

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So I absolutely love the place and the people here.

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And within that journey of being 14 years here, I was on a path to try to find out what

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I was going to do professionally.

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I have a law degree back home.

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I was a tax lawyer, but it wasn't something that I wanted to do.

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So I worked for a couple of years in the service industry, as you do when you are doing exchanging

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programs and you want to go back to your country just to make money.

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But then when I decided that I was going to stay here, I needed to find what kind of path

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I was going to follow, professional path or corporate path, because it was something that

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I wanted for me.

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So because I was good with people, I always loved dealing with people, positive attitude,

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energy, and et cetera.

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So I decided to do HR related courses and to join the world of the corporate roles in

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the human resources field.

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So that's what I did.

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I started and actually made a transition into a human resource role in one of the restaurants

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that I was working in, because the restaurant grew and scaled so quickly.

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They became from a 20-people organization to a 400-plus people organization.

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So they needed a HR person there.

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The story there is quite interesting because I actually pitched my role to the head of

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HR of that restaurant.

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And they didn't have that role, but we created that role for me to join their organization.

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So it was quite nice to see that happening.

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And then from there, it was HR, HR admin.

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Then I joined LinkedIn in a recruitment position.

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Then I left LinkedIn and joined HubSpot in a recruitment position.

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And then while I was a recruiter, I rediscovered my passion for content creation and storytelling.

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And it was when I made a decision to either work with marketing, content, communication,

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any job related to that field and that skill.

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And then it was at HubSpot when I got the invite from LinkedIn to be back to work in

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an employer branding or recruitment marketing role, creating content and promoting LinkedIn

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employer brand.

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And that's what I did for the past two years until I was let go or laid off last November.

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So that's a little bit about me.

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Great.

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Thank you for going through that.

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And Leon, I'm not surprised you wanted to get into the people business, which is HR.

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Right.

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Because you, anyone from meeting you and me knowing you for a number of years, you've

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got a great energy.

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And you're always a very positive person when we meet.

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So yeah, I've really noticed that about you.

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So I'm not surprised you have gone into the career that you have gone into.

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You mentioned sort of redundancy there, right.

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And I suppose that's a word on some of our listeners lips now and previously.

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Right.

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And I'd like to share with you and our listeners about my experience of redundancy.

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So I've actually I've been made redundant three times in my career.

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So I think during those times, it put me through a lot of stress and anxiety and affected not

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just me, but my family and my personal life as well.

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And one of the many reasons I set up yourheart.ie was to avoid that again.

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Right.

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And not put myself through a situation like that.

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And I think when it happened the first time, you immediately question whether you're good

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at what you do and why you've been made redundant.

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And unfortunately, the three times that I was made redundant were through no fault of

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my own.

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But specifically, I was made redundant from one business during the second lockdown due

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to a strategic pause in hiring.

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My wife was pregnant at the time.

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Obviously, there's a lot of anxiety going around about Covid as well at that point.

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And I was back out in the job market in the middle of a pandemic.

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So to say I was anxious was an understatement.

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Right.

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And I think why I'm telling you this is that having been through that, I have learned so

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much about myself and how important it is to be resilient.

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And I suppose the third time it happened, I kind of was laughing about it because this

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is absolutely, you know, bad things happen in threes.

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It just happens.

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Right.

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That's what happens.

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Good things happen in threes.

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So it can never happen again.

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The fact that it's happened to me three times.

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So, yeah, I suppose just to sort of go back on my point there that when it does happen,

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it is absolutely nothing to do with how good you are at your role.

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And I would say that to any listener out there and to yourself that has been made redundant,

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that it is just one of those decisions made at the top of the chain.

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And what I would say to companies out there that go through these strategic pauses, there

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is a duty of care for them to, you know, go through the consultation period in the right

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way.

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And don't forget that you are dealing with humans during that consultation period.

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And there's a lot of anxiety.

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And to any manager out there that has to do something like this, my advice would be is

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to spend the time with your team, you know, listen to them and try to support them as

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much as possible.

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And in fairness, the companies that I was made redundant from had that support network.

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And actually one thing I found quite useful was when I was out on the job market, me along

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with a lot of other people, I buddied up with someone in the business that was also looking

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for a similar role and that really helped me.

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You know, the two of us supported each other throughout that process and we had open conversations

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about how we're feeling and we would send each other roles.

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And you know, it was a great support network to have during that pretty tough period.

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So yeah, so it's not the end of the world.

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If it happens, I believe, it's a bit of a cliche, but once one door closes and another

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opens and try to look at the positive sort of things that have happened to you in your

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career, the experience you do have now and that you can bring on to your next business.

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So that was me and my redundancy story, but I'd love to hear how you have navigated it,

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Leon, because I know it's happened quite recently to you.

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And I don't know if you can relate to anything I said there, but it would be great to hear

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your story about it.

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Yeah, I love that idea of buddying up with someone that is looking for similar roles.

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That's a good one, I'm going to take note and pass that advice forward.

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So the first time that I saw, not that I went through, but that I saw redundancies happen

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was in 2020, right?

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And up until then, I was in love with the company that I was working for.

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It was a great organization doing everything and anything for you as an employee, as long

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as you did your job, right?

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So when the redundancy happened back then, it kind of took me by surprise the fact that

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it was happening, because the business was still doing well and if anyone would die to

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have a business performing the way that they were.

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And then also because of the caliber of the people that I saw being let go, I was a new

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recruiter probably maybe just over a year of experience and I saw great people go.

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And then with also the help and mentorship of my manager at the time, I got to realize

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that, listen, this can end at any point in time.

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And it was back then that I took the decision of, okay, so I need to have something.

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If this happens, what will I have in my hands or what can I work with?

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And that's why I decided to take the ownership of my personal brand and that's where the

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journey started.

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And then the results of it will be, if you look on to my LinkedIn profile, even though

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I'm not super active at the moment because of everything that is happening, but the content

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that I create, the podcasts that I do, the fact that I'm being invited and I'm constantly

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invited to be part of different shows and podcasts such as this one, these always started

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with that seed in 2020.

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And with the fact that I was kind of preparing myself, if the ship turns, I have to be ready

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for that.

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But the thing is you never are.

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So from there, I probably saw two or three more redundancies happen in the business that

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I was working and saw people go in and there is a great level of guilt when you stay, especially

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when you see people that are great professionals going as well.

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But nevertheless, it's great to stay.

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And then when it happens to you, it's tough to digest the element of that has nothing

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to do with your performance.

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I had that digested as well because I saw great people going.

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I was like, okay, this is just a business decision.

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In the end of the day, you become a number when things turn sour.

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But I agree with you.

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I think companies can do and should go out of the way to look after their employees when

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they are making them redundant.

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And I'm not sure if I saw that happening a lot.

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I saw support happening, but I think across the board, especially the tech industry, from

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other people sharing and saying, I think things could have been managed a little bit better

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to ease the burden of being made redundant.

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Usually that's associated with great package and it's not that you're going to go into

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poverty.

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And so that's great, especially if you're a father or a mother and you want to look

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after your family.

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But I think things start to, you start to worry about things when you are.

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So me, for example, November, December, January, February, right?

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November, December, January, February.

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I'm three months in, so time goes pretty fast.

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And suddenly you are three months out of the job market.

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And then I look at other colleagues that were made redundant the last time and they are

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one year out of the job market.

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And then I look at colleagues that were made redundant maybe one year and a half ago and

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they are still out of the job market.

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So looking at that, you start to worry when is going to be my time, when I will get a

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job and everything is super uncertain.

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There is a podcaster that I listened to and a professor of marketing of the University

247
00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:14,800
of New York.

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Maybe you know him, Scott Galloway.

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And I love, he's quite harsh on his professional approach.

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And he says, nobody owns you a living, no company owns you nothing.

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Don't walk and behave yourself in this work as they do.

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Always prepare for the worst.

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And that's what I'm bringing with me.

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And that's the advice that I try to share and pass forward.

255
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Because sometimes you are there in the thick of it and giving all of your sweat drops to

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live that company mission, thinking that they owe you something in return.

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Well, in fact, actually they don't unless you are a shareholder.

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So that's what I try to do.

259
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One of the things that I try to live by.

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But nevertheless, being out of the job market and having no source of income coming through

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the bank, it's worrying.

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The more the time passes, the more worried and anxious you feel when it's going to be

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my time.

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And then you start seeing people coming back to the job market and getting new jobs.

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And it's unavoidable to compare yourself and be like, oh my God, they just got a new job.

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Oh, that's great.

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Oh yeah, Person X just got a new job.

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And suddenly you are worrying, when is it going to be my time?

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Is my guy going to come?

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And then maybe sometimes you're going to have interviews as well, like I did.

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And then you're going to fail and you're going to be rejected.

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So then putting everything into a bucket, you need a lot of support to manage that mentally

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for sure.

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The redundancy itself, I was okay with it.

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But then the pause redundancy, that's what took at all my, even my self-confidence and

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self-belief.

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So yeah, and you need support.

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You need people saying that you are great, even the quick interaction that we had at

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the start, you see that I have good and great energy, connecting with people, connecting

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with industry colleagues to remind all the great things that you achieve, the profession

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that you are.

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So you're able to move forward, but it's hard.

283
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It is.

284
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And I like the sound of Scott Galloway, right?

285
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:35,600
We'll have to put his link in underneath this podcast for our listeners.

286
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:42,480
But there's something in that there that I noticed, Leon, that it's important to remember

287
00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:48,440
when you are out in the job, Marcus, it is about number one and it's about you getting

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a job.

289
00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:56,400
And I think when you see job updates on LinkedIn, as you mentioned, and maybe ex-colleagues

290
00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:01,920
that have gotten roles, it's hard to be, it's human nature to kind of be like, oh, look,

291
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,840
this staffer has got a job, why haven't I found one?

292
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:13,200
So unfortunately, sometimes the jobs, the stars have to align and there's an element

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00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,360
to look there as well.

294
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But try not to let it affect your self-confidence because we talked about this in previous podcasts,

295
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:28,200
but that lack of confidence then is brought into interview and the interviewer is picking

296
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:29,200
up on that, unfortunately.

297
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:30,200
Yes, 100%.

298
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,200
Exactly.

299
00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:37,080
And it's hard for that interviewer to empathise with someone who's been out in the job market

300
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:42,080
for a long time, they just want someone to come in and do the job for them, right?

301
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:45,080
So it takes us tall, absolutely.

302
00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:52,320
And that's why mental health and it gets a lot of airtime these days, which is brilliant.

303
00:20:52,320 --> 00:21:02,520
It's about spending time with Max and everyone spending time with their family and making

304
00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,640
sure you're getting out for a walk, not chained to the computer, scanning the internet for

305
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,120
jobs constantly.

306
00:21:09,120 --> 00:21:17,000
It can be very tempting, but I always say sort of two hours per day, you don't want

307
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:18,000
to be doing more than that.

308
00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,160
I think you start to get a little frantic and anxious if you're doing more.

309
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,160
Oh yeah.

310
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:23,160
For sure.

311
00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:29,640
So with our lovely Irish weather though, sometimes that doesn't help.

312
00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:36,440
But I would say as well that to make sure that you're capitalising on the times of

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00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:37,440
year.

314
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:45,440
So I would say February to April, May time is probably an optimum time to be looking.

315
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,280
It's when companies are implementing their headcount.

316
00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:54,520
And then summer is quite quiet, people are on holidays.

317
00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:59,440
And then September tends to be a good time as well as September, October.

318
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:02,120
Then the market kind of dies November, December.

319
00:22:02,120 --> 00:22:08,920
So for anyone out there looking, that's the time to be focused and laser focused, I would

320
00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:09,920
say.

321
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:11,600
Thank you for sharing that, Leon.

322
00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:20,720
I can empathise with a lot of those things that you said and it's just about reminding

323
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:25,960
yourself that it's not about you and how you performed in your job.

324
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,400
So try and keep that front of mind.

325
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:33,760
Leon, what is the worst advice you ever got?

326
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:35,200
Oh God.

327
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:41,840
I'm going to find it hard to answer that one as a conflict avoidant person.

328
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,840
The worst advice.

329
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:53,360
My God, I'm going to need a few seconds.

330
00:22:53,360 --> 00:23:01,260
You know, let me see if I remember, but the worst situation that I got advice from was

331
00:23:01,260 --> 00:23:08,880
when I knew that I was going to be made redundant.

332
00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:15,160
And I had a particular individual.

333
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:20,820
It's a very hard situation when someone's going through that and then you want to offer

334
00:23:20,820 --> 00:23:26,800
your shoulder as a way of support, but also you don't want to be too intrusive.

335
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:31,240
You want to give them their space, but also they might be feeling quite isolated.

336
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:36,480
So I think it's very complex to navigate redundancy as a team and it's quite hard to get it right.

337
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,880
And I think you need great leadership to do so.

338
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,760
But when I knew that I was going to be made redundant, I can't remember what was said,

339
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:55,320
but there was this particular individual that came to me and just told me to look at a company,

340
00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:03,160
a weird job board that they were hiring people for X, Y, Z. And it was something completely

341
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,800
out of what I was looking for, completely out of what I wanted, just because maybe that

342
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:13,240
person saw a skill set that would merge with the skill set that they were looking for and

343
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:20,920
just showed, I think, even though it came from probably their heart, maybe lack of listening

344
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,480
skills or lack of being like, what's your plan, Leon?

345
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:25,480
What are you going to do?

346
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:27,800
What are the things that you're going to look for in the future?

347
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,320
Oh, yeah, I know about that opportunity.

348
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:34,600
But no, that person went straight away into showing something that I always felt diminished,

349
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:40,400
but it was something that was zero related to what I wanted to do.

350
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,840
And I just remember looking and be like, oh, yeah, sure.

351
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:44,840
I looked it up.

352
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,000
I didn't say anything at the time.

353
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:52,000
But obviously that person was trying to help, was trying to get me to the job market as

354
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:57,160
fast as I could, but I think there was a little bit of lack of empathy and understanding of,

355
00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:04,560
you know, where was I on my journey, how that person could help me then knowing that information.

356
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:05,560
That's what I can remember.

357
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:10,280
I'm trying to remember what was suggested, but I think it was so completely out of my

358
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:16,280
world that I, you know, the trauma of it erased it from my brain.

359
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,120
Yeah, yeah.

360
00:25:19,120 --> 00:25:25,920
I can relate to that, like through the three times that I've been made redundant, like

361
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:32,840
there were people, not really in my team, but I would know maybe as stakeholders.

362
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:38,800
And they're sending me these random jobs, you know, with the salary that's 20 or 30

363
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,000
K below my expectations.

364
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:48,440
And that doesn't help, right?

365
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:57,400
It's almost like at the time I was in such bad form and, you know, it affected me mentally

366
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,200
so much that I felt it was like a slap in the face a little bit.

367
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:10,720
There was no thought put into us, you know, and they certainly didn't listen to me about

368
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:14,800
the roles that I was looking for because I had a previous conversation with this person,

369
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,560
you know, and they knew exactly what I was looking for.

370
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,160
So yeah, there was a bit of that, right?

371
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:27,000
And that kind of, you mentioned that kind of sparked off a memory that I had as well

372
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:33,960
of not in the companies that I was in, but when it happens, when these companies go through

373
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:41,080
these strategic pauses and they let go, you know, a large number of staff, there was a

374
00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:51,120
lot of updates on LinkedIn, you know, mentioning people that have been made redundant and saying,

375
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:55,600
oh, I'm opening you up to my network.

376
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,840
I think it was just a tsunami of people putting that update up.

377
00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:06,640
And the more it got put up, the less genuine it felt.

378
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:12,800
And I'm not too sure how effective it was putting up a post to say that you're open

379
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,400
to someone's network, right?

380
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:20,800
So yeah, I think that was one thing that I did not enjoy and it kept happening over and

381
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:21,800
over again.

382
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,160
I don't know if you've experienced anything similar to that.

383
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:31,120
But yeah, that was, there wasn't a lot of, yeah, it wasn't very genuine.

384
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:34,400
Yeah, I saw, I saw, I saw them.

385
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:44,840
I saw people challenging those posts as well.

386
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:47,000
Yeah.

387
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,480
The social media thing is hard to navigate, right?

388
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:50,480
It's newish.

389
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:54,680
You don't know what you can say, what you're trying to say.

390
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,400
Obviously they came from a good place.

391
00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,880
But if you think about, you know, a smart goal was very generic, right?

392
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,320
It wasn't specific.

393
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,200
In general, they weren't specific.

394
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:11,880
They, you know, they probably got very little reach out.

395
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:14,640
And some people are virtual signaling.

396
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,800
I'm sure that there is a bit of that as well.

397
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,240
But it's hard to look at a post like that and say, I'm going to reach out to that person.

398
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:27,680
Unless that person is, you know, someone of an organization they admire or is in a position

399
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,200
they want to be in.

400
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:36,080
But I think if you are to do that, be as specific as you can.

401
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,760
You know, I would love to help recruiters that were made redundant because of my experience

402
00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:40,760
in the market.

403
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,800
So please, you know, reach out to me and let's review your CV together.

404
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:44,800
Okay, great.

405
00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:46,720
My network is your network.

406
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,440
And then you have 10,000 people in your network.

407
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:55,320
You'll be like, oh, it's, it's, I got the intention, but it's generic.

408
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:56,320
Yeah.

409
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:57,320
Yeah, it is.

410
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,320
I think it's just the more happened.

411
00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,320
Yeah.

412
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,720
If it helps someone, if it helps one person, I suppose it's worth a write.

413
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:08,720
We just have 100%.

414
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:09,720
Yeah.

415
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:10,720
Yeah.

416
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:11,720
Yeah.

417
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:17,440
And from a job interview perspective, someone who has a lot of experience in recruitment

418
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:23,600
and says, you know, hard, I'm sure a lot of people have your career.

419
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:33,240
From a job interview perspective, what resources do you recommend?

420
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,400
Well depending on the stage that you are in.

421
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:45,120
So if you are applying for a job and you didn't have contact with the hiring team yet, careers

422
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:52,980
page, company careers page on LinkedIn, people that work on that organization, leaders that

423
00:29:52,980 --> 00:29:58,560
work on the team they want to join or people that work on the team that you want to join.

424
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,920
And then any interview to preparation.

425
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,640
They will help you with the answer with answering questions.

426
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:11,680
So chat zpt is a great one if you know how to use and you probably the right way.

427
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:15,080
But there are also tools, I think, on LinkedIn that help you interview your answer questions.

428
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,880
And then it gives you feedback on that.

429
00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:27,040
And then with all of that, the most important is preparation, preparation, preparation, because

430
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:33,920
I think one of your guests said that on your previous episodes, but interviewing skill

431
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:37,360
is oftentimes a skill completely different to the skills that are going to apply in your

432
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:38,360
job.

433
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,100
But you still have to develop and you still have to do well.

434
00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:43,080
So you need to work on it.

435
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,560
Yeah, it's true.

436
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,360
There are so many good candidates out there that have an interview done a very long time

437
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,400
because they've been a good employee and they've stayed with their business for a long time.

438
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:57,880
They just don't have the interview skills.

439
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:04,520
So it's unfortunate because when they interview then and the interviewer can only make a decision

440
00:31:04,520 --> 00:31:09,920
on how they perform in that interview, they unfortunately don't get hired even though

441
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:14,160
they're probably the perfect person for the role.

442
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:22,960
I have something to say about that, because I think the interview has many stages.

443
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,560
That's for a reason.

444
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,860
And it's only to the hiring manager, hiring team loss if they don't understand how to

445
00:31:30,860 --> 00:31:37,160
identify potential and then look at the whole context of that person application process.

446
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:42,800
So I talk a little bit of the story of my wife that she was made redundant after coming

447
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,000
back from an attorney to leave.

448
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:50,240
So one year out of work, came back, was made redundant and then was out of work for another

449
00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:51,520
six months.

450
00:31:51,520 --> 00:32:01,840
And then the organization that she joined on the interaction with the recruiter, I think,

451
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:03,680
or maybe with the hiring manager.

452
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:06,480
So she spoke to the recruiter and the recruiter passed on to the hiring manager.

453
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,600
And on the hiring manager's phone screen, if she was doing that interview with any other

454
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,920
organization or most of the organizations, she would be rejected.

455
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:19,840
But the hiring manager came back to give the feedback to the recruiter and the recruiter

456
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,660
told her, listen, we understand where you're coming from.

457
00:32:23,660 --> 00:32:27,000
We can see your potential and your passion and everything, but your confidence is down.

458
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,720
Your confidence is down and we notify that.

459
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:35,120
And that will serve you, won't serve you for the role, the job or the interview process.

460
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,620
So you're going to pass it to the next stage.

461
00:32:37,620 --> 00:32:42,800
You get your stuff together and then you try to present a different version and a best

462
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:44,800
version of yourself.

463
00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:45,800
Okay.

464
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:46,800
That's interesting.

465
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:52,360
So they kind of gave her, they felt she was the right candidate, but her confidence was

466
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,760
down in the interview.

467
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:59,560
But they kind of gave her another chance to bring her authentic self to the next interview.

468
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,280
She prepared, overprepared and then she got the job.

469
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:10,120
It was a career transition, probably competing with folks that were more experienced and

470
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:11,880
had a lot of experience in the role.

471
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:16,040
They were done in the situation that we were living in.

472
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,640
But we are humans, it's hard.

473
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,720
And you get someone in that way, the person is going to work probably 10 times or X times

474
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,240
harder than the person that joins on the confident route.

475
00:33:29,240 --> 00:33:30,240
I know who I am.

476
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:31,880
I know what I can deliver.

477
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:38,760
So it's rare, maybe 1%, 0, 0, 0, 1%.

478
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,080
But I see it happening.

479
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:43,680
So yeah, I'm hopeful.

480
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:49,360
It's great to hear something like that, Leon, because companies don't usually do something

481
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:50,360
like that.

482
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,720
What I really think there is what they're doing is they're creating a great candidate

483
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,520
experience as well.

484
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:04,120
My wife obviously went down and got the role and I'm sure she thought about what they did

485
00:34:04,120 --> 00:34:11,040
for her there during the process, which can only be a good thing because those things

486
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,160
got passed on.

487
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,040
There's good word of mouth about that particular company creating a good candidate experience.

488
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,200
That's how you hire the best talent.

489
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,920
You create the best candidate experience versus your competitors.

490
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:39,440
Have you listened or read anything recently that's inspired you, Leon?

491
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,320
Oh my God.

492
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:53,880
I read and listened to so many things.

493
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,280
You know, and that's a cheesy one, but I only got to, you know Tony Robbins, right?

494
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,280
Yes, of course.

495
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,160
Yeah, I follow him on LinkedIn.

496
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:07,080
He's been around, I don't know, doing his thing for the past 50 years or so.

497
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:14,480
But we have this new great medium that we are utilizing today called podcasting, which

498
00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:20,800
when they talk to someone famous, it allows us to deep dive into the life of that person

499
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,280
and hear and see what they have to say.

500
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:35,960
He was just sharing a little bit about his story of having a brain tumor and with, I'm

501
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,640
sorry, just the delivery guy.

502
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,600
Don't worry, it's going to work.

503
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,360
No, he's going to live on the bean.

504
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:48,400
So his story of having a brain tumor, the brain tumor giving him elephantism, and that's

505
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:53,600
why he's so big because he was over producing growth hormone and then making the decision

506
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:59,400
of leaving the tumor inside his brain because it was basically what was allowing him to

507
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:05,800
have his energy and recovery so fast to be able to give those 12-hour seminars for the

508
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:09,000
entire week.

509
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,800
And it was just, obviously he's a great speaker, he has a lot of energy and everything, but

510
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:20,920
I think it was a great, it was very inspiring story of not only overcoming something, it

511
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:22,280
is a disease, right?

512
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:28,360
But actually, and he was able to do so, but having the ability to live it there, live

513
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:34,520
with it, he's cunning every three or four months or whatever he has to do it because

514
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:39,520
that allowed him to be the best version of himself.

515
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:46,320
I think it was very, very inspiring to get that snippet of his life and something and

516
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,120
a challenge that he went through and he probably goes through still with that thing in his

517
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:56,680
head, but he still is able to make it work now with all the money in the world, of course,

518
00:36:56,680 --> 00:37:00,920
which makes it easier, right?

519
00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,720
Yeah, I think that what came to mind without thinking, without filtering myself, but that

520
00:37:06,720 --> 00:37:08,120
was bad, you can edit it out.

521
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,200
He's a great example.

522
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:16,680
And I think if you watch him on videos, you've never been introduced to him before, you don't

523
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,600
know nothing about him, he comes across as an extremely confident guy, right?

524
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,800
But I think from the story you just explained there, it just shows you how someone like

525
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:30,360
that can be so vulnerable when something like that happens to them.

526
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:36,760
And I think overall, what we've talked about here, there's been a common theme of redundancy,

527
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,720
but it really puts redundancy into perspective when you hear something like the story you

528
00:37:40,720 --> 00:37:44,120
just described about him.

529
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:52,080
And really kind of lets us think about how important your health is versus something

530
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:57,920
like redundancy that you will get through and you'll get another job, it's only a matter

531
00:37:57,920 --> 00:37:58,920
of time.

532
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:02,520
So, I think it really puts it into perspective, right?

533
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:10,200
I actually have another one, sorry, I know that we might be crossing over the 30, 45

534
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:11,200
minute mark.

535
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:12,200
That's okay, yeah, no, go ahead.

536
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:19,280
I love and I'm passionate about content creation, specifically video content creation.

537
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:26,800
So as a consumer, I spend more time on visual platforms like YouTube or Instagram and video

538
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,680
than LinkedIn itself, LinkedIn is still very text heavy.

539
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:35,000
I'm there, I leverage, but I prefer to spend time in other platforms.

540
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,800
And there is these creators that I follow and actually want to follow a little bit the

541
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:44,300
business model because they realize that they are not good creators, but they are good on

542
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:47,920
empowering creators to be better creators, right?

543
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:53,920
And one of them, they're called Colin and Samir, one of them has a business coach.

544
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:59,640
And he was talking to his business coach about some insecurities of his life and insecurities

545
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:06,520
about maybe taking big leaps or being in situations that he felt that he has no base underneath

546
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:07,880
him.

547
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:13,240
And I love what the business coach told him, obviously it was specific to him and specific

548
00:39:13,240 --> 00:39:18,980
to anyone that maybe has a little bit of experience in the market and network and everything.

549
00:39:18,980 --> 00:39:26,240
But his business coach said, listen, when you are all the situations of fear, maybe

550
00:39:26,240 --> 00:39:29,680
you're doubting yourself, you don't believe that you're going to get the next thing or

551
00:39:29,680 --> 00:39:36,080
next deal or next job, you are defaulting to your old self.

552
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:41,960
You've been in this life and in this professional life for years, years and years, 10, 15, 20

553
00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:42,960
years, right?

554
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:50,360
So you are a very wealthy person when it comes to skills, knowledge and network.

555
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:55,080
And you have to trust that when you make those decisions, you're never going to start from

556
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,080
zero.

557
00:39:56,080 --> 00:40:02,640
When you default to that fear mode, you are being that individual that started in the

558
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,680
job market or in that position or as a creator 15 years ago.

559
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,800
You had nothing, you knew nothing and you were starting from zero.

560
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,200
You're never going to be that person again.

561
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,300
It takes some time to change and to adapt to the new version of yourself.

562
00:40:16,300 --> 00:40:20,720
But just remember where you are, what got you here.

563
00:40:20,720 --> 00:40:23,780
And if you're in a situation where it doesn't look that things are going to go right or

564
00:40:23,780 --> 00:40:28,320
these are not going to close, just trust that something will work out out of it.

565
00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:31,720
Because in that sense, you are wealthy.

566
00:40:31,720 --> 00:40:33,480
And I was like, whoa.

567
00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:38,720
I think that gave me a sense of calmness because I could look back and say, wow, I do have

568
00:40:38,720 --> 00:40:41,680
a lot of stuff that I have been building until now.

569
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:46,400
So now it's time to leverage those and put them to work.

570
00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:47,400
Absolutely.

571
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,840
It's not all about how much money you have, right?

572
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,200
As well, you're wealthy in other perspectives as well.

573
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,960
That's really, really like that.

574
00:40:59,960 --> 00:41:07,880
What is your top tip, Leon, for anyone in the interview market, job market at the moment,

575
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:10,440
I should say?

576
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:15,760
So the word anyone makes a child.

577
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,400
As a marketeer, anyone makes it challenging.

578
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,160
A bit more specific.

579
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:29,600
So I want to say maybe let's speak to folks that were made redundant, right?

580
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:35,680
Because I think that's a position that I'm in at the moment and a shoes that I can feel.

581
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:41,000
I think my top tip is for interviewing, you said.

582
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,840
Yeah, for anyone on the job market at the moment, whether it be the interview itself

583
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:51,360
or searching for a job.

584
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:59,960
So I would structure my way back to the job market and do a roadmap or a business plan.

585
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:03,560
Obviously, some people have to go back tomorrow and they have to apply to whatever role they

586
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:04,760
have to.

587
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:14,160
But if you have time, if it's a week, if it's four weeks, if it's six months, build a plan

588
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:20,880
to go back or a structure, meaning that understand what are the organizations that you want to

589
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:24,960
work for and make a top 10, top 20 list.

590
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:28,240
Then out of those organizations, what teams do you want to join?

591
00:42:28,240 --> 00:42:29,520
Do you have that clear?

592
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:31,400
I oftentimes didn't have that clear in my life.

593
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,400
So it was always hard to some extent.

594
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,400
But do you have that clear then who are the business leaders, who are the individuals

595
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:43,720
and try and leverage LinkedIn to build the network of like-minded professionals, professionals

596
00:42:43,720 --> 00:42:50,000
in the same industry and professionals in the companies that you work for?

597
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,640
Strengthening your network.

598
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:57,920
So then when an opportunity arises, you're ready to take it, you're ready to ask for

599
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:02,960
a referral, you're ready to be referred.

600
00:43:02,960 --> 00:43:07,960
Then within that plan as well, I would 100% add being active on LinkedIn.

601
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,160
And it doesn't necessarily should involve creating content, which is something a little

602
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:18,480
bit harder to do, but definitely active on other individuals' content.

603
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,920
So always industry-focused.

604
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,200
So let's say I'm a lawyer, I want to go back to the legal world.

605
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,080
Who are the top creators in the legal world?

606
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:33,000
What are they saying and how I can add value to that conversation?

607
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:37,080
Just that's going to elevate your profile 10x.

608
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:43,240
And then if you have time and if you have the ability, if you have the courage, if you're

609
00:43:43,240 --> 00:43:48,080
okay with judgment, you can put yourself out there creating content on LinkedIn as well.

610
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:56,200
But again, at least 80% focus on the industry that you want to go back to.

611
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,720
The plan can be a little bit more robust, but there will be some of the things that

612
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:05,320
I'll be focusing on and that one should focus on 100%.

613
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:11,120
Yeah, it's kind of about being visible, right, as much as possible.

614
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,960
And you just never know where that like or that comment will get you and who will see

615
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:16,960
that.

616
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:18,480
And I say that to my clients all the time.

617
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:23,920
You will be surprised how many people actually read these comments and read the content

618
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:29,840
or watch the content, especially when you're sort of immediately available for work.

619
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,880
Yeah, some great tips there.

620
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:36,200
Leon, where can our listeners find you?

621
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,320
Yeah, just one last thing.

622
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:43,000
LinkedIn has this new LinkedIn top voice for, you know, what do you call it?

623
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:44,400
Micro top voice.

624
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:50,360
So if you have time to engage with those AI articles and get a badge of being a top voice

625
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:55,480
in your specific industry, I'll say do so because at the moment, since everyone is getting

626
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,960
it one day, they will close the tap.

627
00:44:57,960 --> 00:44:58,960
So make use of it.

628
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:06,200
If people want to find out about me, look for Leon Nussbaumer on LinkedIn or Leon and

629
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,520
the professionals on Spotify or Apple podcasts.

630
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,280
That's where I speak to professionals that are helping the world be a better place.

631
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:18,320
And yeah, let's let's talk about careers.

632
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:19,960
Let's talk about content creation.

633
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:21,960
Let's talk about anything and everything.

634
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:23,640
Fantastic, Leon.

635
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,840
It's been a pleasure to have you on the show and thank you so much for your time.

636
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,000
And I will add all those links then at the bottom of the podcast.

637
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:33,000
Thank you so much.

638
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:34,000
Thanks, everyone.

639
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,000
Thank you.

640
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,000
Peace.

641
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:37,000
Oh, balloons.

642
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:38,000
Damn.

643
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,000
OK.

644
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:40,000
Balloons.

645
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:45,000
We're going to open the background for our listeners there.

646
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:46,480
I'll end on that.

647
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:52,140
Thank you, everyone.

648
00:45:52,140 --> 00:45:54,780
Thank you for listening to the Interview Expert.

649
00:45:54,780 --> 00:46:00,320
Make sure to check out our website, yourhire.ie, where you can subscribe to the show and also

650
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,280
find out more interview tips and tricks.

651
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:07,040
While you're at it, if you found value in this show, we'd appreciate a rating wherever

652
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:08,040
you get your podcasts.

653
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,800
Or if you simply tell a friend about the show, that would help us out too.

654
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:14,780
Owen Murray is available for private coaching.

655
00:46:14,780 --> 00:46:17,760
See our website for details at yourhire.ie.

656
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:25,120
Until next time, do good, feel good, and be good.