Prioritising Your Mental Health : Brent Pope, Mental health advocate & rugby legend

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This podcast is sponsored by Conexus Recruit,

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Ireland's leading digital recruitment agency.

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Whether you're looking to reach top talents,

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considering a career switch, or in need of guidance

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on the ever -changing talent landscape, partnering

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with Conexus is a no -brainer. Welcome to Season

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2 of the Interview Expert Podcast. I'm your host

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Owen Murray, the CEO of YourHeart .ie, job interview

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preparation for everyone, including anyone with

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ADHD or anxiety. I'm honored to have sat down

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with Brent Pope to kick off season two. Brent

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was part of the All Black training squad leading

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into the 1987 World Cup, but was sadly injured

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in the last game before the tournament started.

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That All Blacks team ended up winning the World

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Cup and is often talked about as one of the strongest

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rugby teams ever to play. He is also a high profile

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media personality, clothing brand owner, award

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-winning author, Art gallery curator and charity

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work not only does but he is one of our leading

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mental health advocates. The focus of today's

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episode is all about taking care of your mental

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health especially while looking for a job. This

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is a conversation to remember and one i will

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never forget. Brent welcome to the pause and

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brent if someone was just click on to this podcast

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to listen because the thumbnail was interesting.

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or that the title was interesting. With the understanding

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that we are going to talk about mental health

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during the interview process and the work that

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you do with setting up Elephant in the Room,

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can you tell me exactly why they should stay

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and listen to this conversation? I think seriously,

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Owen, because I probably, in rap terms, I'm an

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OG. I'm an old gangster in the sense that I've

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been going around since about the last 15 or

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16 years, maybe 20 years, I can't remember. I've

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been going around the country trying to advocate

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to people to... Just look after their mental

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health and others mental health a bit better,

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you know And I've seen all over the years people

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say to me all things are changing and people

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are talking about more But I go back to the stats

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and I say we're still you know Far too many people

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are still taking their own lives each year in

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Ireland and around the world Far too many people

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are getting themselves in a situation where they're

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angst -driven or depressed or lonely, all these

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things, loneliness has become a killer in this

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country as it is another country for people in

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rural Ireland or rural New Zealand. So I'm just

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about why people should listen because I've had

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a life of experience. Sometimes when I go out

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and I listen to people talk about mental health

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from a book per se, I feel like standing up and

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yelling out, how would you know if you haven't

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been there? How would you know? It's okay for

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people to say, Okay, I know what that feels like.

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But unless they've been there, they actually

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don't know what it feels like. And it's not a

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simple matter of saying one shoe fits everybody.

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You know, it doesn't. So you've got to come at

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it from different ways. If you're struggling

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with anxiety or depression, we'll talk a bit

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about whether it's related to an interview or

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whether it's related to a driving license or

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a first date, whatever it is, there's things

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that you can do to calm yourself down, because

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here's the question I ask people when I'm out

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there talking. I say, put up your hand if you've

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done something specific for your physical health

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over the last week or the last month, for instance.

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Gone for a walk, gone for a walk by the sea,

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played a bit of tennis, gone to the gym, whatever.

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Most people put their hands up in the room, right?

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That's understandable. Most people will. Most

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people know about diet and nutrition and water

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and sleep and all these things. I'll ask the

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same question and say, but have you done anything

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specifically for your mental health? Only two

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or three people in the room will put up their

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hand. They look at me and they say, what do you

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mean? I'm saying things like mindfulness, meditation,

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all these things, because the thing for me is

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my background dictates that I knew all about

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my physical health. I knew all about it. I was

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a fit, rugby player. Working out in the gym every

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day, looked after my diet, looked after my hydration,

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looked after all these things, but it still didn't

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help. Well, it helped to a certain degree, but

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I couldn't tie the thread between being physically

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well and mentally unwell. Because mental health,

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when we say mental health, it suddenly sometimes

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seems to morph out into a bad thing. But mental

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health can be positive as well as it can be negative.

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Mental illness is a bit different because it's

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an illness, and an illness will always be negative.

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People always say to me, oh, mental health, mental

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illness is the same. No, it's not the same. Mental

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health is something that, you know, as I said,

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can be just as simple as giving yourself more

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confidence or planning your way through anxiety.

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Mental illness is a bit different. Mental illness,

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if you're suffering from mental illness, then

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you clearly need help. So if people want to...

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stay on and listen to a few, I suppose, wisdom,

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ideas from a life lived with mental health and

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also gone back and studied as a qualified as

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a psychotherapist for my own journey. So there's

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a bit of science involved, but more so to experience

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of what I've learned. You know, I've talked to

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people all over the world, experts on mental

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health for my own journey. So I pick up little

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nuggets. Person I talked to and so yeah, I didn't

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look at it that way You know and I put I dropped

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them down and I go back and say okay If I'm feeling

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in a funk or I'm in a low mood or I'm anxious

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or something I go to work. That's the difference

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So is a fit body a fit mind not necessary not

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necessary Because if that was the case We wouldn't

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have any athletes or people that are in peak

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physical condition complaining about mental health

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issues. Yeah And in fact, in fact, for a lot

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of sports, professional sports now, it's a really

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dangerous area. You can talk about these young

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rugby players or young football players. Okay,

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just put yourself in a scenario. We were just

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talking to someone the other day on my own series

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of interviews. Somebody enters one of those big

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football clubs in the UK or something like that

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and suddenly signs a contract for 30 grand or

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40 grand a week or whatever that's like. Brilliant.

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Life is great. you know, goes out and buys a

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Ferrari and a new house and, you know, the beautiful

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looking part. Life is great. Suddenly he gets

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injured or suddenly gets dropped out of contract.

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Man, it's like redundancy on steroids. You know,

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suddenly you're going to plunge into a situation

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of what defined him. His purpose is gone. What

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defined him is gone. The adoration from the fans

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is all gone. You know, maybe somebody leaves

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him. Maybe he can't get another job. Talk about

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entering into an area of mental health difficulties

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and then multiply that in the likes of the states

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where these young athletes go into the American

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football or American basketball and they have

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what everybody else seems to be a dream life.

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Half of them are broke at 40 and they don't know

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what to do. So that's a real cauldron of mental

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health difficulties. But yet, again, here's the

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kicker. Coaches and managers place less importance

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on the holistic view of a person's mental health

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than they do on the physical view, and that needs

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to change. Because if I was a coach tomorrow,

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the most successful coaches I've ever met look

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after their players, both physically and mentally.

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So they build up a rapport, they build up a communication

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network with their players to say, hey, you can

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come to me with anything that's going on outside

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of the game and I'll try to understand but I've

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been there for you, I care about you as a person,

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I'm there to support you. They are the coaches

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that have the greatest impact on players' lives.

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Regardless of wins, regardless of cups, regardless

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of championships. So my message to any aspiring

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rugby coach or football coach or GA coach is

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Look after your players first, and that involves

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looking after their mental health as well as

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their physical health. That's a great point,

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Brad. Actually, I'm sure you'll agree it should

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happen from all the way from skills level right

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up to, you know, being a professional athlete.

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Absolutely, because if we take a holistic view,

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it's as simple as this. And it's something I

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never get. How can you ask a worker, if you're

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listening from business or you're listening from

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sport, a worker or a player, whoever you're involved

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with, to perform at optimal level if their mental

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health, if their mind is somewhere else? Relationship

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with their parents, relationship with their girlfriend

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or their boyfriend or their partner, relationship

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with their kids. What's happening outside of

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the sphere of the arena or the pitch or whatever

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it is, or work, what's happening outside of them

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that you can bring some positivity to and say,

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okay, we're looking after that side of it. All

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we want you to do is to become to the to the

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match or whatever or come into work and be clear

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of mine. And we're all focused on the site in

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the same direction, because we care about you.

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You know, it's something as simple as that. But

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but but largely, it doesn't happen. You know,

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and people ask me all the time, from a business

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point of view, how do I get the best out of my

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employees, the best? way to get that out of them

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is show that you care about them or be vulnerable

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with them. So I'm not the perfect boss or I'm

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not the perfect coach, but I care about you guys

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as a group, you know, and we're all focused in

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the same way. We all want the same thing. We

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all want to be successful, but you know, care

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about care about people. Is this something, Brent,

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that you didn't see as a rugby player, you know,

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growing up and obviously migrating into a professional?

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No, because I couldn't. I didn't have, what do

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people call it, courage or whatever. I thought

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it would be less of a man if I went to my teammates

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or my coaches and said, hey, I'm struggling with

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this. I'm not struggling with the physical side

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of it. You know, I was one of the fittest rugby

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players in New Zealand as I saw it. Jim, every

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day, that lifestyle, everybody else looking into

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my lifestyle would have said, you know, Brent's

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in a great place. You know, good job, university

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educated, you know, fit at sport, good at sport,

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playing rugby for his country, doing all these

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things. But it just wasn't enough for me. So

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I couldn't go to anybody and that was the problem.

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That's why I set up the Elephant in the Room

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and then we'll talk about it in a few minutes.

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That's why I set it up because I don't want anybody

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else to go through what I have and people might

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say, oh well, you know, just get on with it,

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man up, toughen up, harden up, push through all

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these things I was told. I just couldn't do it

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without help. And I was too scared to get help

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because what had helped look like for me in that

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generation, it looked like showing I was weak.

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You know, I was a wimp of that. Less of a man.

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Less of a man because I turned around to a teammate

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and said, hey, mate, something's going on, you

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know, with my private life that I'm struggling

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with, and it's overflowing onto my performance

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on the field. Just felt weak. Felt that I couldn't

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share that with somebody. Felt I couldn't even

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share it with my own father You know, and I mean

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he said it's such a loving thing to me in his

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80s when he read my book I see you have the book

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in the back Thanks for that but he put his Hand

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on my shoulder one time and in kind of tears

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at that age and said hey, I wish I'd announced

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son And I said, I wish I'd been able to tell

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you that, you know, because it would have stopped

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me going down plenty of rabbit holes in my life

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if I'd just had somebody to talk to and not feel

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so alone and not feel so abnormal. I thought

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I was the only kid going through this, the only

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kid that had to hide what I was going through

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around the anxiety and depression and, you know.

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Breakdown if you want to use that term later

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I thought I was the only one going through that

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because I couldn't find anybody else that would

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say hey print You know, you're not the only one

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going through this, you know, and it's not so

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abnormal. I just felt different I felt ostracized

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I thought that I couldn't talk to anybody and

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I felt alone and I felt shame and I felt guilt

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and all these things Why do you feel shame you

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feel shame because you can't fix yourself. I

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could fix my but I could go after a doctor With

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any sporting injury, and I've had a lot of men,

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I've probably broken every bone in my body at

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some stage, apart from the really serious ones.

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But I could go to the doctor and I had a high

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pain threshold and I would go along and say,

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put me in a cast. And, you know, a couple of

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weeks before the cast, then I ripped the cast

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off and I go back playing rugby and I break things

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again. That was easy. My God, trying to find

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someone that could help, could help my mental

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side, I think that was hard. Like, how did that

00:13:24.539 --> 00:13:27.120
come about? Did you reach out to someone or was

00:13:27.120 --> 00:13:29.179
there a certain point in your life where you

00:13:29.179 --> 00:13:31.679
just said, you know, you shared it with someone?

00:13:32.759 --> 00:13:34.200
There's always a point, there's always a point

00:13:34.200 --> 00:13:35.940
in somebody's life when they're ready to share

00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:38.480
it. You know, and that's, that's what I do now,

00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:41.559
because I said, let's not let brothers or sisters

00:13:41.559 --> 00:13:44.000
or aunties or uncles slip through the net here,

00:13:44.019 --> 00:13:48.000
because it's a situation in my world. And I'll

00:13:48.000 --> 00:13:50.799
keep this cliche as long as I live. that in my

00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:52.700
world, it's not for everybody I know, but in

00:13:52.700 --> 00:13:56.340
my world, a problem shared is so often a problem

00:13:56.340 --> 00:13:58.980
halved. If you can just talk to somebody else

00:13:58.980 --> 00:14:02.419
and they can just listen, if they can just be

00:14:02.419 --> 00:14:05.299
there to listen, don't be there, here's the first

00:14:05.299 --> 00:14:09.639
nugget, don't be there to tell them what works

00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:13.600
for you. I got sick of people saying to me, oh

00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:16.659
Brent, what I do is this, this, this, this, this

00:14:16.659 --> 00:14:20.320
and this. If somebody's out there suffering from

00:14:20.320 --> 00:14:22.759
depression, they'll know what I mean. The last

00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:24.840
thing you can think of is when you're suffering

00:14:24.840 --> 00:14:27.080
from depression is getting up and going to the

00:14:27.080 --> 00:14:29.240
goddamn gym. That's the last thing you can think

00:14:29.240 --> 00:14:31.519
about. It's an effort just to get out of bed.

00:14:31.820 --> 00:14:33.799
It's an effort to go and have a shave. It's an

00:14:33.799 --> 00:14:35.759
effort to have a wash if you're feeling that

00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:42.340
way. So I don't tell anybody what to do. What

00:14:42.340 --> 00:14:45.940
I'll maybe say is this might help, but the first

00:14:45.940 --> 00:14:49.059
thing that helps the most is sharing that sharing

00:14:49.059 --> 00:14:50.700
with somebody else and for somebody else to say

00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:54.600
hey I care about you Owen you know we want the

00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:57.059
old Owen back at work we want the old Owen back

00:14:57.059 --> 00:14:59.460
in the rugby team or the GA team or something

00:14:59.460 --> 00:15:03.419
how can I help how can I help and sometimes for

00:15:03.419 --> 00:15:06.259
a lot of people as they said look I just appreciate

00:15:06.259 --> 00:15:09.179
you you're being there you don't have to say

00:15:09.179 --> 00:15:12.340
anything we don't have to and feel guilt around

00:15:12.340 --> 00:15:14.840
saying to somebody, I'll just be strong, that

00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:17.059
added Irish thing, oh, you're strong, you're

00:15:17.059 --> 00:15:20.139
strong. God damn it, some people aren't strong.

00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:22.379
Some people going through bereavement or grief

00:15:22.379 --> 00:15:24.279
and that, they should be allowed to grieve, and

00:15:24.279 --> 00:15:27.080
it's okay to say, hey, yeah, anybody would be

00:15:27.080 --> 00:15:29.080
going through those feelings. If anybody's lost

00:15:29.080 --> 00:15:32.259
a marriage or lost all their financial things

00:15:32.259 --> 00:15:35.019
or lost a job or lost a partner or lost anybody

00:15:35.019 --> 00:15:37.519
like that, everybody goes through a grieving

00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:41.179
process. But yet we're told, you know, Be strong,

00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:43.860
bounce back, you know, you'll be back. You know,

00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:45.659
some people find that harder than other people

00:15:45.659 --> 00:15:48.279
to do that. And that's when they need to talk

00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:51.320
to somebody. And if it's somebody, if it's a

00:15:51.320 --> 00:15:53.659
friend or if it's a colleague, have someone in

00:15:53.659 --> 00:15:55.580
your life that you can talk to. It doesn't have

00:15:55.580 --> 00:15:57.919
to be your own family, doesn't have to be a sibling,

00:15:58.100 --> 00:16:00.659
doesn't have to be a therapist, but someone,

00:16:00.919 --> 00:16:06.440
find someone. Because... You need to find someone

00:16:06.440 --> 00:16:08.899
in that time, an Arab need. Now I found that

00:16:08.899 --> 00:16:11.000
because I do the work for the Samaritans, I found

00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:15.179
it in a simple conversation with the lowest point

00:16:15.179 --> 00:16:18.019
in my life was the Samaritans. And you know what?

00:16:18.299 --> 00:16:20.740
That part of the conversation will stay with

00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:26.559
me forever. And I made that call, and I'm not

00:16:26.559 --> 00:16:29.259
going to tell you what led up to that, but I

00:16:29.259 --> 00:16:35.980
made that call in kind of desperation. I saw

00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:39.580
a faint light that wanted to keep me going, put

00:16:39.580 --> 00:16:42.419
it that way, that I had something to live for,

00:16:42.460 --> 00:16:49.019
I had something to go on and achieve. So the

00:16:49.019 --> 00:16:51.120
conversation, when I rang them, I didn't expect

00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:54.799
to get an answer. At that time, I didn't. And

00:16:54.799 --> 00:16:58.320
then this wonderful man's voice and the tone

00:16:58.320 --> 00:17:00.759
of it, whatever like that, just come on and said,

00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:05.119
it'll be okay, friend. Just that part of the

00:17:05.119 --> 00:17:07.900
sentence, it will be okay, friend. Somebody called

00:17:07.900 --> 00:17:11.079
me a friend that I didn't know. And I mean, I

00:17:11.079 --> 00:17:13.200
look back later in life and I said, how powerful

00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:15.980
was that part of the conversation? A, somebody

00:17:15.980 --> 00:17:19.220
giving me hope that things would be okay, and

00:17:19.220 --> 00:17:21.720
B, somebody showing that they cared by calling

00:17:21.720 --> 00:17:25.359
me a friend. So I say to people out there, that

00:17:25.359 --> 00:17:29.759
smile that you have, that quick chat to your

00:17:29.759 --> 00:17:33.970
elderly neighbor, that hello down at the... supermarket,

00:17:35.289 --> 00:17:37.970
that in itself can change people's lives. Random

00:17:37.970 --> 00:17:40.269
acts of kindness can change people's lives because

00:17:40.269 --> 00:17:41.890
you don't know what's going on in their life

00:17:41.890 --> 00:17:44.009
at that split second. You don't know what they're

00:17:44.009 --> 00:17:47.150
going through at home, aboard, whatever. You

00:17:47.150 --> 00:17:50.269
don't know. But just a smile and a handshake

00:17:50.269 --> 00:17:53.470
and a compliment or something to say, you know,

00:17:54.410 --> 00:17:57.500
that same thing, you'll be okay, friend. We'll

00:17:57.500 --> 00:17:59.619
get through this together. That's all I'm trying

00:17:59.619 --> 00:18:02.259
to do. That's all I'm trying to do. I'm not there

00:18:02.259 --> 00:18:06.059
telling companies or football teams or GA teams

00:18:06.059 --> 00:18:08.480
or rugby teams what their strategy should be,

00:18:08.859 --> 00:18:10.599
you know, because that's forever changing. But

00:18:10.599 --> 00:18:13.640
what I am saying to everybody out there that's

00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:17.000
listening, it's just let's care about people

00:18:17.000 --> 00:18:19.500
a bit more. You know, I'm not asking people to

00:18:19.500 --> 00:18:22.359
do everything every day for charities and everything.

00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:24.799
No, that's not reality. But what I am asking

00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:28.029
people to do. is to take into consideration that

00:18:28.029 --> 00:18:30.309
you don't know how somebody is feeling on any

00:18:30.309 --> 00:18:33.630
given day. And rather than, rather than kind

00:18:33.630 --> 00:18:38.170
of greet them that way and, you know, just, you

00:18:38.170 --> 00:18:41.349
know, greet them in a kind, you know, welcoming,

00:18:41.589 --> 00:18:47.210
non -judgmental manner. Yeah. And actually I

00:18:47.210 --> 00:18:49.789
experienced that myself in my own neighbors here

00:18:49.789 --> 00:18:53.740
when COVID hit. Yeah. There was one positive

00:18:53.740 --> 00:18:55.940
that came out of COVID is that I know absolutely

00:18:55.940 --> 00:18:59.799
every neighbor on this street. But in a kind,

00:18:59.900 --> 00:19:02.599
nice way. And, you know, we used to get groceries

00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:05.079
for our next door neighbor who's 86. He lives

00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.240
by himself. And I think, you know, he appreciates

00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:10.740
when I meet him and we have a chat in the morning.

00:19:11.539 --> 00:19:13.420
When you're talking about that, they're going

00:19:13.420 --> 00:19:18.430
to spark that memory. But with us, Brent. It

00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:20.210
takes a lot of courage. Obviously what you did

00:19:20.210 --> 00:19:21.890
there, you picked up the phone, you talked to

00:19:21.890 --> 00:19:24.630
the smartens. What would you say to someone that's

00:19:24.630 --> 00:19:27.269
listening now that hasn't made that call yet?

00:19:27.269 --> 00:19:29.009
You know, because it does take a lot of courage

00:19:29.009 --> 00:19:34.630
to do something like that. Yeah, it's often you.

00:19:35.210 --> 00:19:38.269
It's an often the word miss kind of used in a

00:19:38.269 --> 00:19:39.769
sense. People come back and say, oh, that was

00:19:39.769 --> 00:19:42.650
courage. I don't see it as being courage. What

00:19:42.650 --> 00:19:46.970
I want to. To cry try to create out there the

00:19:46.970 --> 00:19:50.190
most important thing for me is it should just

00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:53.809
be more part of the norm You know people shouldn't

00:19:53.809 --> 00:19:55.990
have to be seen as brave or courageous because

00:19:55.990 --> 00:19:58.190
they shared a story You know if you shared a

00:19:58.190 --> 00:20:00.250
story with me tomorrow and about look, I'm you

00:20:00.250 --> 00:20:03.569
know, I'm going through tough tough times Brenton,

00:20:03.650 --> 00:20:09.400
you know I would just say, hey, that's more normal

00:20:09.400 --> 00:20:12.059
than you think. I wouldn't necessarily see you

00:20:12.059 --> 00:20:14.759
as being brave and courageous. I think that's

00:20:14.759 --> 00:20:17.519
a tag that's often used on people that maybe

00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:21.279
put things up on the more sort of visible platform,

00:20:21.299 --> 00:20:24.400
which I've done. But I didn't see it that way.

00:20:24.660 --> 00:20:31.200
For me, the important thing was that, and I still

00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:33.079
find it difficult, I'd have to say, I still find

00:20:33.079 --> 00:20:35.059
it difficult when I'm out there talking because

00:20:35.079 --> 00:20:37.960
My first instinct, as somebody that suffered

00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:40.720
from depression and anxiety, the first instinct

00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:43.579
of our kind of people, when I call them our kind

00:20:43.579 --> 00:20:47.039
of people, is that you go through the one bad

00:20:47.039 --> 00:20:49.480
comment out of 99 and think that is the real

00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:54.779
comment. 99 % of the people can say, you're courageous,

00:20:55.019 --> 00:20:56.380
brilliant, what a wonderful thing you're doing.

00:20:56.900 --> 00:20:59.440
If one person turns around and says, I don't,

00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.440
you know, whatever like that, that is what people

00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:05.839
like us focus on, unfortunately. And you've got

00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:07.619
to do a lot of work around that. I have to do

00:21:07.619 --> 00:21:10.079
a lot of work around the judgment, because that's

00:21:10.079 --> 00:21:13.180
the generation I grew up in, being judged. So

00:21:13.180 --> 00:21:15.559
you look at the Facebook generation, people are

00:21:15.559 --> 00:21:18.079
getting judged every day. You know, the way they

00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:20.279
look, you know, their lifestyles, how they act,

00:21:20.420 --> 00:21:22.680
how they should act, or whatever like that. That

00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:26.099
judgment is piling on young people, tenfold.

00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:29.140
You know, bullying, social media bullying, comments

00:21:29.140 --> 00:21:31.519
made about the way people's waiters, the way

00:21:31.519 --> 00:21:34.960
they look and say, judgment everywhere now. And

00:21:34.960 --> 00:21:38.500
that took a long time, really, for me to be able

00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:41.519
to say, hey, I'm doing something good here, and

00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:44.259
leave it at that. And not go away and feel that

00:21:44.259 --> 00:21:46.960
saying, because now I turn that around and say,

00:21:46.980 --> 00:21:49.900
if I can appeal to the one person that is struggling

00:21:49.900 --> 00:21:53.000
or is suffering and takes my advice and goes

00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:55.119
and talks to someone or calls us Americans or

00:21:55.119 --> 00:21:58.359
Pieta House or whatever like that, that is the

00:21:58.359 --> 00:22:02.380
first step. That is the first step. to people's

00:22:02.380 --> 00:22:04.079
eventual recovery. And I'm telling people out

00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:05.819
there now, if you're in a low place, or you're

00:22:05.819 --> 00:22:07.859
watching this, and you're feeling depressed or

00:22:07.859 --> 00:22:11.180
anxious and that, there is a full chance of recovery.

00:22:12.579 --> 00:22:14.299
Full chance of recovery that you'll get your

00:22:14.299 --> 00:22:17.440
life back in days, weeks, months, however long

00:22:17.440 --> 00:22:20.299
it takes, but you've got to make that first step

00:22:20.299 --> 00:22:22.890
and talk to somebody about it. And that's where

00:22:22.890 --> 00:22:25.470
it starts. People that have addiction problems,

00:22:25.470 --> 00:22:27.650
they know that. They know they've got to go into

00:22:27.650 --> 00:22:29.650
rehab. They know they've got to stop smoking

00:22:29.650 --> 00:22:32.089
or drinking. They know that. People around mental

00:22:32.089 --> 00:22:34.829
health get into such a state, they think there's

00:22:34.829 --> 00:22:37.789
no help out there. And then what's the alternative?

00:22:38.109 --> 00:22:41.769
And sadly, the alternative for nearly 500 people

00:22:41.769 --> 00:22:46.029
next year in Ireland, the alternative we don't

00:22:46.029 --> 00:22:49.250
want to think about. I've lost too many people

00:22:49.250 --> 00:22:52.799
in my life, Owen. friends, colleagues, that have

00:22:52.799 --> 00:22:55.440
taken their own lives. And I just scream out,

00:22:55.859 --> 00:22:59.839
why? You know, how did it get to be that situation?

00:22:59.980 --> 00:23:01.940
I always remember that Adam Clayton is one of

00:23:01.940 --> 00:23:04.099
our ambassadors for the Elephant Room and the

00:23:04.099 --> 00:23:07.599
Faber Sky, but I used a song, the U2 song, stuck

00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:09.539
in the moment and can't get out of it, because

00:23:09.539 --> 00:23:12.200
that is how we feel. No matter how long that

00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:14.799
moment is, it could be a minute, it could be

00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:16.559
a week, it could be a month, it could be a year,

00:23:16.619 --> 00:23:19.180
it could be 10 years. If you get stuck in that

00:23:19.180 --> 00:23:22.059
moment and feel you can't get out of it, that's

00:23:22.059 --> 00:23:24.880
what I'm trying to avoid people. Let's not let

00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:28.160
people get into that moment in the first place.

00:23:29.140 --> 00:23:31.980
It's just about having that one conversation.

00:23:33.220 --> 00:23:35.079
Yeah, that one conversation that changed my life

00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:37.519
and could change someone else's life. You don't

00:23:37.519 --> 00:23:40.279
know. You don't know that that chat on the bus

00:23:40.279 --> 00:23:42.299
to somebody that was feeling lonely that day.

00:23:42.660 --> 00:23:44.900
You don't know if that gives them enough spirit

00:23:44.900 --> 00:23:47.559
to say, okay. I've got something to live for.

00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:51.200
Somebody cares about me. You know, because there's

00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:53.259
a very good, if people think there's a very good

00:23:53.259 --> 00:23:54.900
guy, there's a very good guy, I won't give you

00:23:54.900 --> 00:23:57.759
the back story, Kevin Myers, if anybody wants

00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:00.819
to continue on that, is a story of a young guy

00:24:00.819 --> 00:24:04.740
that kissed his father goodbye, I think 19 or

00:24:04.740 --> 00:24:07.599
20 years of age or something, and walked to the

00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:10.839
Golden Gate Bridge or whatever. And he says in

00:24:10.839 --> 00:24:13.720
his talk, I told myself the greatest lie I'd

00:24:13.720 --> 00:24:17.069
ever told, that no one cares. That was the greatest

00:24:17.069 --> 00:24:18.789
lie that he told himself, that no one cares.

00:24:19.589 --> 00:24:21.390
There's always someone out there that cares.

00:24:22.049 --> 00:24:24.670
You've just got to find that person and you've

00:24:24.670 --> 00:24:26.930
got to contact them and say, hey, I'm going through

00:24:26.930 --> 00:24:29.710
troubled waters. And nine times out of ten he

00:24:29.710 --> 00:24:32.849
would say, hey, I've been there too, you know,

00:24:33.329 --> 00:24:35.849
and let's go and let's get care together and

00:24:35.849 --> 00:24:37.930
get help together. That's the first process.

00:24:38.329 --> 00:24:43.109
So, as I said, that's in a sense why I created

00:24:43.109 --> 00:24:44.809
the Elephant in the Room because I was saying

00:24:44.809 --> 00:24:48.440
to you, Yeah, everybody has an elephant. Everybody

00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:50.980
listening, the three people that are listening

00:24:50.980 --> 00:24:53.359
to me, we all have our elephants. And what do

00:24:53.359 --> 00:24:55.859
I mean by an elephant? I mean that if I say to

00:24:55.859 --> 00:24:59.339
somebody, if I ask them a question and they say

00:24:59.339 --> 00:25:03.200
to me, ask the elephant in the room, Brent, that

00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:06.059
suddenly signifies to me it's something awkward.

00:25:06.680 --> 00:25:08.680
It's something that's scarring. It's somewhere

00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:11.740
they don't want to go just yet. What I'm saying

00:25:11.740 --> 00:25:13.940
to people is, we all have our elephants, whether

00:25:13.940 --> 00:25:16.720
it's sexuality, whether it's gender, whether

00:25:16.720 --> 00:25:20.240
it's work -related, whatever it is, that's eating

00:25:20.240 --> 00:25:23.079
you up inside. Isn't it better to get that out

00:25:23.079 --> 00:25:25.500
and share that with somebody than let it fester

00:25:25.500 --> 00:25:28.240
away for years or months or years? I get people

00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:30.819
come back to me, oh, and when I was doing a bit

00:25:30.819 --> 00:25:34.259
of therapy work years ago, that was still grieving,

00:25:34.259 --> 00:25:36.839
you know, the loss of their mother or something,

00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:39.980
you know, daily for 15 years. They had never

00:25:39.980 --> 00:25:42.150
addressed it. and other areas in their life.

00:25:42.269 --> 00:25:45.210
They hadn't addressed for 10, 15, 20, 25 years.

00:25:45.470 --> 00:25:47.650
I had a woman come up to me the other day about

00:25:47.650 --> 00:25:49.349
something. She said, Brent, she was in tears.

00:25:49.450 --> 00:25:51.289
And she said, I just saw your wonderful elephants.

00:25:51.609 --> 00:25:53.509
And she said, I realize I have to go home and

00:25:53.509 --> 00:25:57.329
have a discussion with my husband over something

00:25:57.329 --> 00:25:59.849
that she had hidden so deep for so many years.

00:26:00.450 --> 00:26:02.269
And she came back to me and she said, just had

00:26:02.269 --> 00:26:05.049
the most wonderful conversation in sharing something.

00:26:05.259 --> 00:26:07.240
that have been bugging me for so many years that

00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:11.720
I'd held in a kind of a dark place and that's

00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:14.019
what it's about. How did you feel when she said

00:26:14.019 --> 00:26:20.420
that to you Brent? It's a really good question

00:26:20.420 --> 00:26:24.599
and this is not an ego thing. When people come

00:26:24.599 --> 00:26:28.079
up to me I feel the same way, there's something,

00:26:28.460 --> 00:26:30.579
I feel the same way that I feel about that man

00:26:30.579 --> 00:26:35.349
that talked to me. I would have loved to have

00:26:35.349 --> 00:26:37.549
met that voice at some stage in my life. I would

00:26:37.549 --> 00:26:40.250
have loved to have gone back, sorry, it's making

00:26:40.250 --> 00:26:42.690
me emotional. I'd have loved to have gone back

00:26:42.690 --> 00:26:45.150
and said to that guy, hey, and it's what I say

00:26:45.150 --> 00:26:49.029
to all the Samaritans volunteers now, these people

00:26:49.029 --> 00:26:52.809
are saving lives every conversation. And they

00:26:52.809 --> 00:26:55.329
need to be told, and you made a good point about

00:26:55.329 --> 00:26:57.369
COVID, the good things about COVID, people say,

00:26:57.369 --> 00:26:59.029
oh, there was nothing good about COVID. Here

00:26:59.029 --> 00:27:02.579
still was. And the good thing was recognition

00:27:02.579 --> 00:27:05.920
for the likes of nurses and frontline workers

00:27:05.920 --> 00:27:08.319
was suddenly felt justified for what they're

00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:10.619
doing, and rightly so. They were saving lives,

00:27:10.759 --> 00:27:12.920
and they suddenly got the appreciation. And then

00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.319
we moved back into a world where they're suddenly

00:27:15.319 --> 00:27:17.920
not appreciated enough. People called into elderly

00:27:17.920 --> 00:27:21.420
neighbors. People were kinder. If there was a

00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:23.440
death on the road, we all went out onto the streets

00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.740
to show our respect. Those were the wonderful

00:27:25.740 --> 00:27:30.220
sides of COVID. Suddenly we come out of COVID

00:27:30.220 --> 00:27:34.279
and we went back to our busy lives, you know,

00:27:34.619 --> 00:27:36.440
materialistic lives, if you want to call it like

00:27:36.440 --> 00:27:40.339
that, you know. It's the connections you make

00:27:40.339 --> 00:27:43.200
in your life that are most important. It's the

00:27:43.200 --> 00:27:45.920
connections. If you ask somebody at 20 what will

00:27:45.920 --> 00:27:48.119
make them happy or what will deem to be successful,

00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:51.000
it's two things the answer they'll give you.

00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:54.759
Money and fame. If you ask them at 50 or 60 what's

00:27:54.759 --> 00:27:58.480
meant the most in their lives, friends, family.

00:27:58.680 --> 00:28:03.640
giving back. So I say to people, find your purpose.

00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:06.539
Maybe it's taken me 60 odd years to find my purpose.

00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:10.259
But my purpose now is to educate people around

00:28:10.259 --> 00:28:13.920
care. And just to say that they want to turn

00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:16.779
off and say, look, I'm not that type of person,

00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:19.500
then that's them. But I'm just appealing to the

00:28:19.500 --> 00:28:22.720
majority of people that actually would like to

00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:25.619
care for the community, like to care for their

00:28:25.619 --> 00:28:27.940
family, like to care for things like that. They

00:28:27.940 --> 00:28:32.460
would. Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with

00:28:32.460 --> 00:28:34.880
you. You mentioned elephant in the room there.

00:28:35.180 --> 00:28:37.220
For our audience, Brent, what is elephant in

00:28:37.220 --> 00:28:39.640
the room? I'm passionate about a couple of things,

00:28:39.819 --> 00:28:44.920
you know. Well, rugby obviously is sport that

00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:48.200
allowed me to come to Ireland and have a life

00:28:48.200 --> 00:28:51.140
around media and stuff like that. I also loved

00:28:51.140 --> 00:28:54.019
art and I'm also passionate obviously about mental

00:28:54.019 --> 00:28:58.700
health advocacy. So a few years ago I tried to

00:28:58.700 --> 00:29:04.279
combine the art and the kind of... Because creativity

00:29:04.279 --> 00:29:08.519
is good for mental health. Music, you know, what

00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:13.079
you do, the media, you know, acting, painting,

00:29:13.799 --> 00:29:16.140
making music, all these things are good for your

00:29:16.140 --> 00:29:19.059
mental health. And we know that. And I felt good.

00:29:19.059 --> 00:29:21.079
I had a gallery for a couple of years where I

00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.900
promoted what I call outsider art or brute art,

00:29:23.940 --> 00:29:27.700
which was art coming from the mental health organizations

00:29:27.700 --> 00:29:29.960
or from the prisons or from the homeless and

00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:32.539
that because it was art uncooked by culture as

00:29:32.539 --> 00:29:34.680
I call it it was people were doing the art for

00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:37.779
the right reasons whether that was rehab art

00:29:37.779 --> 00:29:39.799
whether that was art to make them feel better

00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:46.359
so a few years ago I saw these cats down in Kilkenny

00:29:46.359 --> 00:29:49.160
in a hotel these wonderfully decorated painted

00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.509
cats And I was talking to the manager and they

00:29:52.509 --> 00:29:55.210
said, oh, these are great. Not just as, and he

00:29:55.210 --> 00:29:57.109
said, I think they were fundraised in those days

00:29:57.109 --> 00:29:59.690
for Kilkenny tourists or the Kilkenny cats or

00:29:59.690 --> 00:30:03.289
whatever, you know. And I thought, what can I

00:30:03.289 --> 00:30:07.630
do that really gets to the kind of the root of

00:30:07.630 --> 00:30:09.769
the problem as I saw it? What can I do to get

00:30:09.769 --> 00:30:12.519
people? starting a conversation around mental

00:30:12.519 --> 00:30:15.140
health. And I looked at all these different animals

00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:16.940
and I looked at all these different sculptures,

00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:18.759
you know, that you see in the doctor's office,

00:30:18.819 --> 00:30:21.420
the half -brain, half - I said, no, that doesn't

00:30:21.420 --> 00:30:24.240
work. And then I was talking to actually an Eastern

00:30:24.240 --> 00:30:26.500
European man about mental health who came up

00:30:26.500 --> 00:30:28.160
to me after I talked to him in the construction

00:30:28.160 --> 00:30:31.500
industry. And he came up to me and he said, Brandy

00:30:31.500 --> 00:30:34.440
said, I just feel, you know, weak talking about

00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:37.299
to colleagues about my mental health around anxiety

00:30:37.299 --> 00:30:40.029
and that. And he said, And this big, strong,

00:30:40.329 --> 00:30:43.329
heavily tattooed man was nearly breaking down

00:30:43.329 --> 00:30:47.329
in tears. And he said, it's my elephant in the

00:30:47.329 --> 00:30:49.690
room. And it was a eureka moment for me. And

00:30:49.690 --> 00:30:53.309
I thought, that's his elephant. Somebody else's

00:30:53.309 --> 00:30:55.269
elephant could be addiction. Somebody else's

00:30:55.269 --> 00:30:57.789
elephant could be homophobia. Somebody else's

00:30:57.789 --> 00:30:59.769
elephant could be like that. And I just then

00:30:59.769 --> 00:31:02.339
thought, It also ties into the fact that when

00:31:02.339 --> 00:31:04.160
we talk about the Elephant in the Room, we're

00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:05.460
actually talking about something we don't want

00:31:05.460 --> 00:31:07.740
to talk about. So I combined the two together,

00:31:08.099 --> 00:31:11.339
and I got hold of another couple of colleagues

00:31:11.339 --> 00:31:14.359
who worked in that area, logistically in the

00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:16.880
sense of where we could get the sculptures done,

00:31:17.059 --> 00:31:19.440
where we could get them shipped in from. They

00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:23.119
had all the artists. So we combined forces, and

00:31:23.119 --> 00:31:26.720
the Elephant in the Room was conceived. But,

00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:32.559
man... I couldn't, I couldn't for a minute have

00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:34.900
thought about where it's gone now. You know,

00:31:35.519 --> 00:31:37.720
every day we've got people coming on and saying,

00:31:37.819 --> 00:31:40.119
look, we love it because it's simple and it's

00:31:40.119 --> 00:31:43.220
a message and companies or sporting organizations

00:31:43.220 --> 00:31:45.299
or celebrities or whatever, anybody can have

00:31:45.299 --> 00:31:48.380
an elephant there. They're five foot high. They're

00:31:48.380 --> 00:31:50.799
beautifully decorated. They're works of art for

00:31:50.799 --> 00:31:53.779
a start. Even if you don't, even if you don't,

00:31:53.839 --> 00:31:57.220
but the message. The message out there comes

00:31:57.220 --> 00:31:59.839
on a plinth and the message is out there is,

00:32:00.140 --> 00:32:02.079
you know, we need to, you know, while you're

00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:04.700
working or while you're employed here or while

00:32:04.700 --> 00:32:08.180
you're at this sporting organization, let's make

00:32:08.180 --> 00:32:11.740
talking about mental health a priority and a

00:32:11.740 --> 00:32:14.440
normal part of conversation or words to that

00:32:14.440 --> 00:32:17.900
effect. We move them around. And in fact, just

00:32:17.900 --> 00:32:21.339
I know talk a lot, but when we had the official

00:32:21.339 --> 00:32:23.940
launch about the year and a half ago, we had

00:32:24.860 --> 00:32:27.680
How I knew it was going to work was because we

00:32:27.680 --> 00:32:29.539
had a couple of photos taken with the real elephant

00:32:29.539 --> 00:32:31.759
out in the zoo. So we had our elephants in the

00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:33.900
four picture and we had the real elephants out

00:32:33.900 --> 00:32:36.400
in the back. And there was an American woman

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.779
showing her, I think, I don't know how old the

00:32:39.779 --> 00:32:42.880
young guy was, a young son was, I'd say seven

00:32:42.880 --> 00:32:44.359
or eight or whatever, might have been younger.

00:32:45.529 --> 00:32:47.410
He rushed over because he just loved the sight

00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:49.230
of the elephant something. He rushed over and

00:32:49.230 --> 00:32:52.390
he started patting the elephant and he looked

00:32:52.390 --> 00:32:54.349
at the plinth and his mother came over and she

00:32:54.349 --> 00:32:57.809
had a chair with a younger child and she said,

00:32:57.970 --> 00:32:59.849
what's all this about? He looked and he said,

00:33:00.210 --> 00:33:03.569
it's about talking about stuff mum. What's the

00:33:03.569 --> 00:33:06.150
responsibility? I thought then I knew it was

00:33:06.150 --> 00:33:08.029
going to work because I thought if somebody that

00:33:08.029 --> 00:33:11.230
young gets it in the message and he just said

00:33:11.230 --> 00:33:13.619
mum. It's about talking about things. Mom, he's

00:33:13.619 --> 00:33:16.240
on the point of finger to say we don't talk about

00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:18.599
stuff at that age. I thought that was wonderful.

00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:21.680
We have a charity partner, which is, you know,

00:33:21.819 --> 00:33:25.599
the Samaritans, obviously, for me. And then we

00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:31.960
also have a social justice, I suppose. fund that

00:33:31.960 --> 00:33:36.759
allows us to get elephants out to schools. We've

00:33:36.759 --> 00:33:40.519
had some donated into children's hospitals, into

00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:43.579
hospitals, rehab centers. So people are really

00:33:43.579 --> 00:33:45.039
getting on board. We have companies every day

00:33:45.039 --> 00:33:47.660
saying, look, can we put one out? We've just

00:33:47.660 --> 00:33:50.000
got a company on there. Can we put one out to

00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:53.220
Trinity and UCD and UCC and all that? Because

00:33:53.220 --> 00:33:57.759
they can sit outside. We work with the companies

00:33:57.759 --> 00:34:00.400
as far as getting an artist involved or branding

00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:03.259
it up Whatever way they want and they just an

00:34:03.259 --> 00:34:05.920
adopt an elephant and it's a start I'm not telling

00:34:05.920 --> 00:34:08.260
them what they should do run strategies or policies

00:34:08.260 --> 00:34:11.079
all that I'm just saying let this be the starting

00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:13.559
point to have a conversation So the first day

00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:15.139
you arrive and work and you see one of these

00:34:15.139 --> 00:34:18.019
elephants, you know You're in a place of care

00:34:18.019 --> 00:34:20.800
that somebody somebody up the chain has thought

00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:23.099
about you My god would I've loved to have seen

00:34:23.099 --> 00:34:24.920
an elephant when I was going in playing rugby

00:34:25.130 --> 00:34:27.409
If I'd seen an elephant, that would have given

00:34:27.409 --> 00:34:29.710
me a little bit of hope and permission to say,

00:34:30.269 --> 00:34:33.849
it's okay. It's okay to talk about. And you know,

00:34:33.949 --> 00:34:36.369
Brent, I'm just thinking of a candidate maybe

00:34:36.369 --> 00:34:38.849
sitting in a reception waiting to go in for an

00:34:38.849 --> 00:34:41.929
interview and having an elephant in the reception

00:34:41.929 --> 00:34:44.949
area. I mean, how good would you kind of showing

00:34:44.949 --> 00:34:46.889
off your company culture and what it's like to

00:34:46.889 --> 00:34:49.809
work here. So for any company out there. To create

00:34:49.809 --> 00:34:52.409
a better candidate experience, get an elephant

00:34:52.409 --> 00:34:54.170
in the reception. Absolutely. Because it also

00:34:54.170 --> 00:34:56.170
gives the people the confidence that going in

00:34:56.170 --> 00:35:02.670
there, half of going into interviews is believing

00:35:02.670 --> 00:35:04.590
in yourself and you're believing that you're

00:35:04.590 --> 00:35:06.769
in a place of non -judgment. You know, yes, you

00:35:06.769 --> 00:35:08.849
can make mistakes and stuff like that. I mean,

00:35:09.010 --> 00:35:11.210
a lot of stress comes around for people going

00:35:11.210 --> 00:35:15.070
into anxiety, but my advice to them is make stress

00:35:15.070 --> 00:35:17.789
your friend. And people look at me and say, What's

00:35:17.789 --> 00:35:20.929
that about? And I say, it's about looking at

00:35:20.929 --> 00:35:23.889
a stressful situation and saying, it's your body's

00:35:23.889 --> 00:35:27.090
way of preparing you for the challenge. Your

00:35:27.090 --> 00:35:29.750
veins open up, adrenaline flows through your

00:35:29.750 --> 00:35:32.670
body. Use that. Don't play it against yourself.

00:35:32.750 --> 00:35:34.809
Use that to your advantage and say, okay, I'm

00:35:34.809 --> 00:35:36.949
ready for this challenge. You can only control

00:35:36.949 --> 00:35:39.829
the controllable. So when you go into an interview,

00:35:40.329 --> 00:35:42.989
ask yourself a couple of questions. A, ask how

00:35:42.989 --> 00:35:45.840
you can help. Because that's the most important

00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:48.159
thing how you can help that company or that interview

00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:50.860
You know and that may be saying is okay I can

00:35:50.860 --> 00:35:52.679
bring all this to your because that's what they

00:35:52.679 --> 00:35:54.480
want to hear they want it They don't want to

00:35:54.480 --> 00:35:56.739
hear how they help you they want to hear how

00:35:56.739 --> 00:35:58.639
you can help there That's where you that's where

00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:01.019
you go for the job and also the most important

00:36:01.019 --> 00:36:03.500
thing in that situation to dampen down the anxiety

00:36:03.500 --> 00:36:07.059
Look at the worst -case scenario and say, okay

00:36:07.059 --> 00:36:10.260
If the worst -case thing is I don't get this

00:36:10.260 --> 00:36:12.900
particular job might I take the learnings out

00:36:12.900 --> 00:36:15.019
of this interview? Might I get a better job?

00:36:15.739 --> 00:36:17.559
Might I get a better opportunity? Absolutely,

00:36:17.659 --> 00:36:20.679
yes is the answer. You might. You know, just

00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:22.760
because you miss out on the job. See, the answer

00:36:22.760 --> 00:36:25.599
is all about, I really need this job or something,

00:36:25.679 --> 00:36:28.159
and if I don't get this job, all is lost or whatever.

00:36:28.699 --> 00:36:30.739
And people get anxious about it. And so rather

00:36:30.739 --> 00:36:32.900
than going and say, okay, this is a learning

00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:35.940
experience, whether I get the job or not, you

00:36:35.940 --> 00:36:38.300
know, take the learnings out and say, If it's

00:36:38.300 --> 00:36:39.760
the worst case scenario, and they call me back

00:36:39.760 --> 00:36:41.460
next day and say, you were in the last three

00:36:41.460 --> 00:36:43.099
or something, but you didn't get the job, unfortunately,

00:36:43.199 --> 00:36:45.400
you say, okay, well, the positive is out of that.

00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:47.400
I got into the last three, and now I'm going

00:36:47.400 --> 00:36:49.260
to take that learnings to my next interview and

00:36:49.260 --> 00:36:52.619
say, okay. That's the way I've looked at my life

00:36:52.619 --> 00:36:54.059
and certain things. I've just said, look, if

00:36:54.059 --> 00:36:57.340
I can get over this, Tom, then I can get over

00:36:57.340 --> 00:37:00.320
anything. Exactly. It's about getting that constructive

00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:03.059
feedback, isn't it? And if you flip that there,

00:37:03.059 --> 00:37:05.579
which is brilliant, it's actually ... When you

00:37:05.579 --> 00:37:07.119
don't get the job, would you get the constructive

00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.639
feedback? That's a step towards your actual job

00:37:10.639 --> 00:37:13.719
that you're going to get. Believe in yourself

00:37:13.719 --> 00:37:16.519
and go in there and say, not everybody wants

00:37:16.519 --> 00:37:19.179
the correct answers. You know, there's an interview,

00:37:19.739 --> 00:37:21.380
they've talked to a lot of people over times,

00:37:21.380 --> 00:37:24.380
you know, about this. Not everybody wants the

00:37:24.380 --> 00:37:28.780
correct molded answer. Be yourself. What are

00:37:28.780 --> 00:37:31.679
your strong points? Okay, look at your weak points

00:37:31.679 --> 00:37:34.199
and move away from them, but give something of

00:37:34.199 --> 00:37:36.019
yourself, give something of your personality.

00:37:36.420 --> 00:37:38.380
And if you have to change your answers, just

00:37:38.380 --> 00:37:41.159
slow down and take a breath and say, okay, no.

00:37:42.679 --> 00:37:44.940
I need to think about this again because all

00:37:44.940 --> 00:37:47.739
these things show your personality, your ability

00:37:47.739 --> 00:37:50.219
to think on your feet, your ability to change.

00:37:50.460 --> 00:37:53.039
Don't just give somebody stock answers that you've

00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:55.219
got off the internet that want to hear, you know,

00:37:55.280 --> 00:37:58.280
what are your weaknesses? Oh, you know, I was

00:37:58.280 --> 00:38:03.800
I worked too hard before. No, you can, you know,

00:38:04.500 --> 00:38:06.900
you can you can just say, look, I'd rather concentrate

00:38:06.900 --> 00:38:08.780
on my strengths or what I can bring to bring

00:38:08.780 --> 00:38:10.880
to you. But at the end of the day, what they

00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:14.000
want to hear in any business is what they want

00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:15.579
to hear at the end of the day, same as when you're

00:38:15.579 --> 00:38:18.820
doing a resume. They want to actually know what

00:38:18.820 --> 00:38:21.900
you can bring to them, not the other way around.

00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:24.079
So many other people say, oh, you know, they

00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:25.579
were telling me this and that. And I said, no,

00:38:25.719 --> 00:38:28.039
it's just a matter of saying, I can bring this,

00:38:28.059 --> 00:38:30.920
this, this, this, this. I might not be so proficient

00:38:30.920 --> 00:38:34.320
at this and that, but I'll learn and I can move

00:38:34.320 --> 00:38:36.840
like that. That's what they want to hear at the

00:38:36.840 --> 00:38:38.940
end of the day. Yeah. And I've said, it's about

00:38:38.940 --> 00:38:42.119
the company asking why you and why now and why

00:38:42.119 --> 00:38:46.099
your experience. Brent, what's your advice for

00:38:46.099 --> 00:38:49.190
someone who It does get very anxious about finding

00:38:49.190 --> 00:38:52.250
a job and maybe the whole process is very overwhelming.

00:38:52.949 --> 00:38:55.650
They've had a lot of no's and it is actually

00:38:55.650 --> 00:38:57.590
affecting their mental health. What would you

00:38:57.590 --> 00:38:59.489
advise to someone like that listening at the

00:38:59.489 --> 00:39:02.230
moment? Because it defines you. Because if somebody

00:39:02.230 --> 00:39:04.050
is going through redundancy or anything like

00:39:04.050 --> 00:39:05.769
that, there's nothing to do with it. I say to

00:39:05.769 --> 00:39:09.289
them, it's not a personal thing. It's not a personal

00:39:09.289 --> 00:39:11.829
thing, so take that out of it for a start, because

00:39:11.829 --> 00:39:14.289
I just spoke to a group down there who were going

00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:17.369
through a company restructure about a month ago,

00:39:17.389 --> 00:39:20.289
and I said, look, this is not personal. You've

00:39:20.289 --> 00:39:22.110
done a great job for this company. What if it's

00:39:22.110 --> 00:39:23.869
nothing to do with that? They're restructuring

00:39:23.869 --> 00:39:27.090
and that shutting down, nothing to do with you.

00:39:27.610 --> 00:39:30.030
So also look at the fact that it doesn't define

00:39:30.030 --> 00:39:32.690
you. You know, certain vocations define you more

00:39:32.690 --> 00:39:35.130
than others, as we know, teaching, nurses, or

00:39:35.130 --> 00:39:37.050
whatever they define you, because there's a certain

00:39:37.050 --> 00:39:39.849
type of person that is drawn to that workspace.

00:39:40.449 --> 00:39:44.610
But for most people, it doesn't define you. So

00:39:44.610 --> 00:39:47.150
what I suggest to people like that, try to find,

00:39:47.909 --> 00:39:50.050
while you're going through that process of redundancy,

00:39:50.449 --> 00:39:54.110
try to find a different purpose. Try to find

00:39:54.110 --> 00:39:56.409
a purpose, whether it's doing some charity work,

00:39:56.429 --> 00:39:59.349
whether it's, you know, getting yourself fit

00:39:59.349 --> 00:40:01.230
or something like that. Try to find that purpose

00:40:01.230 --> 00:40:04.210
so that you're not so defined by, you know, so

00:40:04.210 --> 00:40:06.030
much pressure on getting the job, getting the

00:40:06.030 --> 00:40:08.250
next job or something like that. And then the

00:40:08.250 --> 00:40:09.630
other bit of advice I've been trying to say,

00:40:09.730 --> 00:40:12.869
talk to someone. Go and see someone. Talk to

00:40:12.869 --> 00:40:14.849
someone first and say, what more do I need to

00:40:14.849 --> 00:40:17.909
do to control the controllables? Because talking

00:40:17.909 --> 00:40:20.469
to someone is about controlling what you can

00:40:20.469 --> 00:40:22.900
control. It's getting the advice from them. you

00:40:22.900 --> 00:40:24.619
know the next interview i've messed up on the

00:40:24.619 --> 00:40:26.739
last few what do i do about it just don't go

00:40:26.739 --> 00:40:28.880
down the same stuck in the moment thing like

00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:31.500
you know change the change the outlook to change

00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:34.699
the outlook you know in a sense you know but

00:40:34.699 --> 00:40:37.519
you may need help you may need to come to you

00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:42.079
owen you know professional people it's investment

00:40:42.079 --> 00:40:44.920
in your future but don't get caught up on it

00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:48.219
it doesn't define you know no work no work should

00:40:48.219 --> 00:40:51.679
define you what should define you is the connections

00:40:51.679 --> 00:40:54.219
you make with people, the kindness you show.

00:40:54.260 --> 00:40:56.679
That's what you should define. So once you take

00:40:56.679 --> 00:40:59.780
that off the table, say, look, OK, this is what

00:40:59.780 --> 00:41:02.099
I can offer to this company. I'm good at my job.

00:41:02.219 --> 00:41:04.719
I was good at my job for 25 years before I was

00:41:04.719 --> 00:41:07.539
redundant. And I'll be good again. Build your

00:41:07.539 --> 00:41:10.260
confidence up and appreciate your little achievements

00:41:10.260 --> 00:41:12.320
each day. There's certain things I go through

00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:15.559
with not enough time now. I name it space, which

00:41:15.559 --> 00:41:18.579
is control the stress. Make stress your friend

00:41:18.579 --> 00:41:21.369
if it's acute. if it's chronic plan around the

00:41:21.369 --> 00:41:24.349
stress you know give yourself some days to just

00:41:24.349 --> 00:41:26.630
say look I'll give you an hour at six o 'clock

00:41:26.630 --> 00:41:28.369
or whatever to deal with the stress come at me

00:41:28.369 --> 00:41:30.409
with everything take stuff out of your head put

00:41:30.409 --> 00:41:35.070
it down the journal practice mindfulness meditation

00:41:35.070 --> 00:41:38.769
these techniques you know nature all these things

00:41:38.769 --> 00:41:43.289
you know achievements connections enjoy find

00:41:43.289 --> 00:41:45.190
something you enjoy every day all these things

00:41:45.190 --> 00:41:50.179
can put into the same past Yeah. Have you heard

00:41:50.179 --> 00:41:56.119
of the three three three rule? No. So it's when

00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:59.480
anxiety hits. So when it when anxiety triggers

00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:02.000
and you look around to identify three objects.

00:42:02.539 --> 00:42:04.800
I don't think this was made for Irish people.

00:42:04.960 --> 00:42:08.320
Three, three, three. But look around to identify

00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:12.500
three objects, three sounds and move three parts

00:42:12.500 --> 00:42:16.320
of your body. And I use that. Yeah if i get an

00:42:16.320 --> 00:42:19.440
anxiety attack or a panic attack works really

00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.780
well no that's good if i had a panic attacks

00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:26.699
you know i've suffered them for them too since

00:42:26.699 --> 00:42:31.579
an early age but. It's really about coming down

00:42:31.579 --> 00:42:36.059
from that kind of attack phase so what i used

00:42:36.059 --> 00:42:38.579
to do because i used to call it my Gatling gun

00:42:38.579 --> 00:42:41.469
in the book all these negative. Thoughts, you

00:42:41.469 --> 00:42:43.210
know, this is gonna happen. You'll be a failure

00:42:43.210 --> 00:42:45.250
Brent. You'll be a loser You'll never succeed

00:42:45.250 --> 00:42:47.989
bang bang bang all coming in at one time You're

00:42:47.989 --> 00:42:50.130
there a little part of you is on the other side

00:42:50.130 --> 00:42:52.730
of the elephant, you know, like in a rope saying

00:42:52.730 --> 00:42:55.070
no, please God Don't let this happen. This is

00:42:55.070 --> 00:42:58.949
not the real me But what I what I do to try to

00:42:58.949 --> 00:43:01.389
trick trick my brain in that situation. I just

00:43:01.389 --> 00:43:04.889
said look I Will give you I will I will give

00:43:04.889 --> 00:43:07.820
you all you've got to give me between five and

00:43:07.820 --> 00:43:09.940
six o 'clock and I'll bring my notebook down

00:43:09.940 --> 00:43:11.659
and I'll you know come at me with everything

00:43:11.659 --> 00:43:14.780
you've got you know and I'll give that that one

00:43:14.780 --> 00:43:16.920
hour I'll give it all the time just come to me

00:43:16.920 --> 00:43:18.840
with all the doubts all these things all the

00:43:18.840 --> 00:43:20.659
failures and all that then after they'll just

00:43:20.659 --> 00:43:23.699
say now leave me alone I'm kind of I tricked

00:43:23.699 --> 00:43:26.159
my brain into saying okay you've got your piece

00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:28.019
now you've got your piece of me for that hour

00:43:28.019 --> 00:43:31.230
and it works actually for me it works Because

00:43:31.230 --> 00:43:33.590
other than that, stressed at night, not being

00:43:33.590 --> 00:43:35.630
able to get to sleep, all these thoughts coming

00:43:35.630 --> 00:43:38.230
in, you know, you won't get this job, you'll

00:43:38.230 --> 00:43:40.550
fail, you'll all this. And at some stage you

00:43:40.550 --> 00:43:42.650
just want to say, leave me alone. Leave your

00:43:42.650 --> 00:43:44.730
own brain alone. Will you just give me some peace

00:43:44.730 --> 00:43:49.349
for a bit? So I said, okay, forget about me till

00:43:49.349 --> 00:43:51.929
tomorrow at five o 'clock and then come up with

00:43:51.929 --> 00:43:53.469
anything you've got. And I sort of challenged

00:43:53.469 --> 00:43:56.449
myself, come on, give me it all, you know. And

00:43:56.449 --> 00:44:00.340
then I write down What needs to happen for this

00:44:00.340 --> 00:44:03.139
to happen? So I say, look, okay, that's not a

00:44:03.139 --> 00:44:06.480
reality. That's not a reality. And it's just

00:44:06.480 --> 00:44:08.579
my mind playing tricks on me. And once I go through

00:44:08.579 --> 00:44:10.780
my journaling and say, look, okay, this doesn't

00:44:10.780 --> 00:44:13.119
need to happen, Brent, this doesn't need to happen.

00:44:13.139 --> 00:44:15.440
It's not a reality. And I go through those things,

00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:17.579
I say all the things that if this is the worst

00:44:17.579 --> 00:44:19.840
thing that can happen, can I manage that? And

00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.360
the answer usually 99 % of the time, okay, there's

00:44:24.360 --> 00:44:26.820
1 % of the time that It's a different thing,

00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:29.119
you know, people dealing with terminal diagnosis

00:44:29.119 --> 00:44:32.780
and that, you know, but even then it's been proven

00:44:32.780 --> 00:44:35.039
that if you have a positive outlook, you know,

00:44:35.119 --> 00:44:37.920
it's far better than having a negative one. But

00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:40.940
even then I just say, you know, what's the worst

00:44:40.940 --> 00:44:42.619
that can happen? And most people will look at

00:44:42.619 --> 00:44:45.199
that and say, yeah, I've been through worse or

00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:47.219
I got through that before and they'll get through

00:44:47.219 --> 00:44:50.940
it again. Yeah, I, but I'm anxious. I don't do

00:44:50.940 --> 00:44:52.960
this all the time. I should probably do it more.

00:44:53.340 --> 00:44:55.420
But I write everything down. I'm anxious about

00:44:55.420 --> 00:44:57.179
it. And then I rip it up and throw it in the

00:44:57.179 --> 00:45:00.860
bin. And actually it feels so nice afterwards.

00:45:01.400 --> 00:45:05.039
I think it's a very simple thing to do. That

00:45:05.039 --> 00:45:07.699
also played into the elephant tone. Take it out

00:45:07.699 --> 00:45:14.219
of your head. Brent, while I have you, I couldn't

00:45:14.219 --> 00:45:16.400
kind of let the interview go to ask your friends,

00:45:16.699 --> 00:45:20.239
George and Tom, right? And there's a great interview.

00:45:22.239 --> 00:45:24.019
There's a great interview I remember on The Late

00:45:24.019 --> 00:45:27.699
Late with you, George, George Huck and Tom McGurk,

00:45:28.059 --> 00:45:32.199
where Ryan asked you about being pals. And I

00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:34.039
think he calls you the three amigos at one point.

00:45:34.400 --> 00:45:36.559
It's a great interview for any of the audience

00:45:36.559 --> 00:45:38.880
listening you can get on YouTube. But I have

00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:41.139
to ask, what was it like with George and Tom

00:45:41.139 --> 00:45:43.559
on the rugby analysis during that period? Because

00:45:43.559 --> 00:45:46.639
it looked like you had unbelievably natural chemistry

00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:52.019
between the three of you. Yeah. I loved it. I

00:45:52.019 --> 00:45:54.739
loved it. You know, people often said, you know,

00:45:54.800 --> 00:45:57.260
I mean, George used to play. George used to play.

00:45:57.420 --> 00:45:59.619
We're not friends. I wouldn't go to McGurk's

00:45:59.619 --> 00:46:01.960
place if he was, you know, he was on fire. I

00:46:01.960 --> 00:46:05.840
wouldn't, you know, but, but, you know, I love

00:46:05.840 --> 00:46:07.800
George and I love working with him. I love working

00:46:07.800 --> 00:46:10.139
with Tom and that and, and, and while we weren't

00:46:10.139 --> 00:46:11.960
in each other's pockets and while we were different

00:46:11.960 --> 00:46:15.679
ages and, and, and different views, we respected

00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:18.429
what the other person brought to it, you know,

00:46:18.630 --> 00:46:21.030
George was the, you know, I know it was good

00:46:21.030 --> 00:46:23.190
cop and bad cop, but that's generally the type

00:46:23.190 --> 00:46:25.190
of person I am. I, you know, when I'm talking

00:46:25.190 --> 00:46:28.750
about rugby, I was generally more, despite not,

00:46:28.909 --> 00:46:30.929
despite not being particularly positive at times

00:46:30.929 --> 00:46:34.309
with my own life, when I talk about other people's

00:46:34.309 --> 00:46:36.130
sporting achievements or whether it's Brian O'Driscoll

00:46:36.130 --> 00:46:37.969
or Paul O 'Connell or the Irish team or something,

00:46:38.349 --> 00:46:40.789
I was always overly positive because that's the

00:46:40.789 --> 00:46:44.070
way that I tried to address my own life. What's

00:46:44.070 --> 00:46:46.289
the point of thinking negatively here? even though

00:46:46.289 --> 00:46:49.070
it's hard sometimes not to think that way. I

00:46:49.070 --> 00:46:51.949
learned pretty early on that the way Ford, for

00:46:51.949 --> 00:46:57.090
me, tiptoeing Ford at times was there could be

00:46:57.090 --> 00:47:01.409
another outcome here. But it was great fun. We

00:47:01.409 --> 00:47:04.570
were characters. And now it seems to have morphed

00:47:04.570 --> 00:47:08.969
into a more sort of sedate commentary. Like George,

00:47:09.409 --> 00:47:11.989
every second week he'd be coming out with these

00:47:11.989 --> 00:47:16.980
pearls. Driskell is too slow. I remember saying

00:47:16.980 --> 00:47:19.639
to Halftime, you know, Tommy Bowe has lost his

00:47:19.639 --> 00:47:22.860
pace. You know, he's gone. You know, and then

00:47:22.860 --> 00:47:26.380
Tommy scored a 60 -meter try. I looked at him

00:47:26.380 --> 00:47:32.659
at George and, oh yeah, no, great times. You

00:47:32.659 --> 00:47:34.519
know, if you come up with all these sayings,

00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.400
I can't remember now, you know, they would just

00:47:36.400 --> 00:47:39.539
crack you up. You know, like somebody has the

00:47:39.539 --> 00:47:42.239
larder and England have the Ferrari or something.

00:47:43.679 --> 00:47:48.920
But I miss him. He's getting on and he was 80

00:47:48.920 --> 00:47:51.460
a couple of years ago as was Tom, but I miss

00:47:51.460 --> 00:47:54.639
the camaraderie and I love going in and doing

00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:59.150
those commentaries. They were fun. People would

00:47:59.150 --> 00:48:01.389
always switch over at halftime and watch the

00:48:01.389 --> 00:48:04.510
commentaries. We had letters coming in from an

00:48:04.510 --> 00:48:07.409
80 -year -old grandmother saying, stop short

00:48:07.409 --> 00:48:09.510
of throwing the jam jar at the screen when George

00:48:09.510 --> 00:48:13.010
was on. He was a sort of a pantomime villain

00:48:13.010 --> 00:48:16.809
in a lot of ways. But no, I loved it. It was

00:48:16.809 --> 00:48:18.829
and will remain a huge part of my life and a

00:48:18.829 --> 00:48:21.730
huge part of my Irish life. I love when people

00:48:21.730 --> 00:48:27.739
come up to you in the street and say, I remember

00:48:27.739 --> 00:48:34.360
back then the talking point in the pub afterwards

00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:38.019
was the laugh that you guys had between each

00:48:38.019 --> 00:48:42.579
other rather than the game. Don't get that so

00:48:42.579 --> 00:48:47.340
much anymore. There's not so much social interaction

00:48:47.340 --> 00:48:53.000
or there's not so much entertainment value. Most

00:48:53.000 --> 00:48:56.780
of the people that watch rugby matches, if you've

00:48:56.780 --> 00:49:00.340
got a million viewers, 80 % of them actually

00:49:00.340 --> 00:49:02.300
don't want to know that A should have passed

00:49:02.300 --> 00:49:04.079
the ball to B and should have passed the ball

00:49:04.079 --> 00:49:08.800
to C. They want to know the questions. Should

00:49:08.800 --> 00:49:12.539
the coach be sacked after this loss? Somebody

00:49:12.539 --> 00:49:14.800
be dropped for next week is up That's the kind

00:49:14.800 --> 00:49:17.719
of that's the talk that we used to have and and

00:49:17.719 --> 00:49:20.860
George in that sense Was the was the one percenter

00:49:20.860 --> 00:49:23.159
in the sense? He would be he would be calling

00:49:23.159 --> 00:49:25.400
out what the person on the bar still would be

00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:27.579
saying, you know Like ah, you know so -and -so

00:49:27.579 --> 00:49:29.900
is useless had a useless game when everybody

00:49:29.900 --> 00:49:33.380
else was scared to say it George I came and dump

00:49:33.380 --> 00:49:37.199
fee and these thoughts they would say it Pat

00:49:37.199 --> 00:49:38.980
Spillane and all these people would say it they'd

00:49:38.980 --> 00:49:43.079
say look, you know That's how they felt, so I

00:49:43.079 --> 00:49:45.400
missed that. I know things had to change, things

00:49:45.400 --> 00:49:49.400
had to become more PC and there probably had

00:49:49.400 --> 00:49:54.800
to be less criticism, but still, it's still entertainment.

00:49:55.820 --> 00:49:58.059
It was, it was, it was brilliant. I absolutely

00:49:58.059 --> 00:49:59.800
loved it. I regularly go back and watch them

00:49:59.800 --> 00:50:03.710
back. Well, George won't be listening in. Yes,

00:50:04.150 --> 00:50:07.349
absolutely. Brent, I think what you're doing

00:50:07.349 --> 00:50:10.469
is great. Using your platform to help and support

00:50:10.469 --> 00:50:12.349
men and women that could be going through the

00:50:12.349 --> 00:50:15.429
toughest time of their lives. Find a life. You

00:50:15.429 --> 00:50:18.070
need to be commanded for it. And the world needs

00:50:18.070 --> 00:50:20.769
more people like you. Mr Brent Pope, thank you

00:50:20.769 --> 00:50:24.550
so much. Thanks very much. Delighted. Thank you.

00:50:24.809 --> 00:50:27.030
Thank you for listening to the Interview Expert.

00:50:27.449 --> 00:50:29.989
Make sure to check out our website, yourhire

00:50:29.989 --> 00:50:32.920
.ie. where you can subscribe to the show and

00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:35.480
also find out more interview tips and tricks.

00:50:36.059 --> 00:50:37.900
While you're at it, if you found value in this

00:50:37.900 --> 00:50:40.119
show, we'd appreciate a rating wherever you get

00:50:40.119 --> 00:50:42.360
your podcasts. Or if you simply tell a friend

00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:44.820
about the show, that would help us out too. Owen

00:50:44.820 --> 00:50:47.659
Murray is available for private coaching. See

00:50:47.659 --> 00:50:50.760
our website for details at yourhire .ie. Until

00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:54.059
next time, do good, feel good and be good.