Selling Yourself To Success : Mastering The Art Of Self Promotion - Paul M Caffrey lead author of “The Work Before the Work“

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This podcast is sponsored by Kinexis Recruit,

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Ireland's leading digital recruitment agency.

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Whether you're looking to reach top talents,

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considering a career switch, or in need of guidance

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on the ever -changing talent landscape, partnering

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with Kinexis is a no -brainer. Hey everyone,

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welcome to the Interview Expert Podcast. I'm

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your host Owen Murray, the CEO of YourHeart .ie.

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I will help you secure your dream job in less

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than 90 days. Thanks to each and every one of

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you who come back to listen, learn and grow.

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This podcast is where hiring managers from diverse

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backgrounds share their insights to support you

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on your interview journey. Join us as we explore

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tips, strategies and real world experiences to

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help you ace your next interview and land your

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dream job. In today's episode, I speak with Paul

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Caffrey, who is the lead author of The Work Before

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the Work, the critically acclaimed book. explores

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the hidden habits that elite sales professionals

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use to outperform the competition. Paul's work

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focuses on professional preparation to help salespeople

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prospect better, sell more and get promoted faster.

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Paul is highly educated in the fields of science

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and business and has spent the last 16 years

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mastering his chosen craft sales. He is an elite

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sales professional trusted by some of the world's

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biggest brands and has worked with some of the

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world's most innovative tech companies. Today

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we'll focus on what it takes to get ready for

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interview. Paul created the course, the AE's

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guide to getting promoted with pclub .io. Let's

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get into it. Paul, how are you? Welcome to the

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show. Oh, I'm great. Delighted to be here. How

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are you keeping? I'm good. I'm good. How's your

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week going? Week is going well. I am doing some

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virtual keynotes this week and not out and about

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like last week. It was in Switzerland and actually

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at the tech summit where we got to hang out.

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So that was a bit of fun. Yes, absolutely. We

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did indeed. It was a great day actually. And

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it's a great networking event, right? I know,

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yeah, like there was so many kind of founders

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and companies there and Some of the tech firms

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are incredible at what they're doing and how

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they're scaling. You enjoyed the day? Yeah, great

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day. And networking is something that you mentioned

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there and pretty key to what we're going to chat

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about today because those job opportunities really

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comes down to networking. So I'm excited for

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this chat. Yeah, absolutely. So thank you for

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coming on. I would love to hear what your story

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is, really, Paul. So for me, qualified with a

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science degree was going to change the world.

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And then the road got pulled out from under us

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in 2008. And all research science became something

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that was once a paid for profession to be something

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that you do for free of charge. So rather than

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be broke and research in my twenties, decided

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to move to the UK, decided to work in sales,

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spent the last 16 years doing that. And about

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four or five years ago, stepped out of industry

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and started helping others to become elite performers.

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So it's been a great ride and I've really enjoyed

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it. Fantastic. So you're sort of an expert in

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the area of sales, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So

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sales is my focus. And for me, I remember going

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from the 2009 to 2015 that I would be On an airplane

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every week, going, doing meetings, jumping in

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a rental car at six or seven in the morning after

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I've arrived at an airport, full day of meetings,

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then at the end of the day, sometimes doing quotes

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in the hotel bar until 12 o 'clock at night and

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then doing things again. I reached a point where

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I found that I couldn't do anymore. I could no

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longer just outwork everybody because that brought

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a lot of success along the way. Then I realized,

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well, there's got to be a better way of doing

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it. So I started delving into performance and

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elite performance and was fortunate enough to

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come across a gentleman called Todd Herman. He

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trains Fortune 500 executives. He trains the

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US Olympic team when it comes to performance,

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Real Madrid, Cristiano Ronaldo. This guy, he

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is the guy that people go to and he just so happened

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to be doing an online coaching program and timing

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is great, jumped on that. And that's when I realized

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that instead of looking to just outwork the competition,

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if you're more prepared for the opportunities

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that you decide to go for. then you can be a

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lot more successful and looking at the numbers

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and metrics in that vein, as opposed to just

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trying to go do more and more and more. And that

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led to another stint of great success. Really,

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really enjoyed it. Spent a good bit of time at

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Salesforce and from there decided to step out.

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And that's my big message is preparation and

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released the work before the work. And that was

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in 2022. And that book is really designed for

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sales professionals to prospect better, sell

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more and get promoted faster. And you and I both

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know there is a lot of politics needed to get

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that promotion. Unfortunately, it's not a meritocracy.

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If you could land the sales role based on meritocracy,

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we would just have a look at your numbers and

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your past performance. And there would be no

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need for an interview. But that is not the reality.

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In fact, it's far from it. I've seen people with

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120 % attainment get passed over for promotion,

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and I've seen those with 20 % attainment get

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promoted. And interestingly, sometimes that has

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been right and sometimes it's been wrong. But

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it has all come down to preparation and it has

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all come down to knowing the role that you want

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to go for and planning to get there as opposed

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to just hoping your application goes well, just

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hoping the interview is successful and just hoping

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that you get on with the hiring team because

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at least as professionals never rely on hope

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and those who do, their careers is going to move

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a lot slower and you're going to spend years

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and years in a current position that you could

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be trading for the next role. And over a five

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or a 10 year period, that's going to make a big

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difference to your earning potential, to your

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success and to where you end up. So, you know,

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for me, preparation is key to really accelerating

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your career. Are you saying you make your own

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luck, Paul? That's one way of looking at it.

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Well, I guess what I'm really saying is don't

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rely on hope. Don't hope you're going to get

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that next job. Don't hope that you'll become

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a manager someday. Make a plan. Decide what you

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want to go after. So for example, one exercise

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I do when I'm working with people is We look

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at the next 10 years and we map out the roles

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that you want to go for. So let's say maybe you're

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an account executive, you're a salesperson today,

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and you might want to move into mid market or

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enterprise. Maybe you want to manage an SMB team

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and maybe you want to become a regional vice

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president for your managing an org. And that

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could be a 10 year career trajectory plan. And

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the average 10 year could be two, three, four

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years in each role. If you're comfortable in

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management, moving on to the next, on to the

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next. But if you're intentional and you don't

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just drift, you could spend a year and a half,

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two years in each role and just get there that

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much faster. So again, making your own look,

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it's about being prepared. And when the opportunity

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comes along that you're ready to grab it and

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that you don't even necessarily wait for that

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opportunity to come along, you are networking

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and looking for it. So it's really about taking

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control and taking ownership of what you can.

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So it's funny you say that, right? Because I

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know you mentioned in a post just before we jumped

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on to this podcast to reach out directly to the

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hiring manager. So to prospect them. Can you

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tell me more about that Paul? So this came from

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a conversation I've had with a very experienced

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sales leader and they've moved back to Australia.

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So they're back home. I'm just married and looking

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to get into one of the large tech companies.

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Yeah, the easy way is to apply. Very, very hard

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to make it to an interview stage if you just

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do a blank application, no matter how good you

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are. Then the next stage to that is, well, actually

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network with somebody and find someone who's

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in the company and maybe they can recommend you.

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really solid approach to go for, but if we take

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a step back and we put ourselves in the shoes

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of the sales manager, what are they looking for?

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They're looking for somebody who is the safest

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bet to achieve the number, who is going to deliver.

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On top of that, there's maybe some other cultural

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things that are looking for. They want to have

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a balanced team. So maybe they're looking for

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maybe the person who runs events is leaving the

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team. Maybe the person who's excellent at prospecting,

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they're the ones who are going to move on. And

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the team might be light on those extra skills.

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So they're also looking to get the common blend

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across the board. And what I'm turning around

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and recommending to this person and I recommend

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to other people to do is, yeah, if you know somebody

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in the company, Find out who the hiring manager

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is. If you are speaking to a recruiter, get the

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name of the hiring manager. Maybe even reach

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out to potential colleagues and find out who

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that person is. Send them a message. Send them

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a video. get in touch with them as if you were

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looking to sell to them as if you were looking

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to get their attention. And if you work in sales,

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you should be pretty good at reaching out craft

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and cold outreach that listens responses. And

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from there, we're looking to get that casual

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conversation that 10 or 15 minute coffee. And

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when you manage to land that number one, there's

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not that many people that are actually doing

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it. And then number two, that instead of just

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being a conversation where you look to talk about

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sports teams or the weather or just leave it

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the chance that you're going to hit it off. You're

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prepared for that conversation and what you're

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looking to do is treat that like qualification

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or discovery where you're looking to understand

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what's the team dynamic like, so who's leaving

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the team and what does that mean the team is

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going to be lacking and what's your vision for

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the team going forward. You can also be asking

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questions that are important to you. What's attainment

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like on the team? How many people are a hit number?

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What are the big challenges? What are the big

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hurdles that you're coming across? And that conversation

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will, number one, hopefully make it still appealing

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for you. You might realize, oh, I don't want

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to be in there for whatever reason. And that's

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great, because then you know to go for another

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role somewhere else. But more than likely, you're

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going to go, I want to go ahead and work here.

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And if that is the case, then you're entering

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into the process. So get that friend to officially

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Submit your application or just formally apply

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yourself. What the key thing is. You now have

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great Intel you know know what the vision for

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that team is from the hiring manager you know

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know what they're going to be losing you know

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they you think that they need and you can bring

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that in and craft your message that you can deliver.

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throughout the interview process itself. But

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before I go a little bit further, what part of

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that would you like to delve down into a little

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bit more, Owen? Well, it's a great question,

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Paul. I agree with you on reaching out to your

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network and using your network to progress in

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interviews and build out your network as well.

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I suppose I think it is a personal choice on

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if you want to do that or not. I have I worked

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with clients in the past who don't feel comfortable

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in doing that, which is fine. I think you need

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to make that choice of yours and either go for

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it or don't. You touched on something there that

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is so, so important when you are actually reaching

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out and you do get that 15 minute chat or coffee

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with a potential peer of yours or the hiring

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manager. But essentially, if you meet your peer,

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within the business that you want to work for,

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all you need to really do is ask them, what do

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you do day to day? And you'll learn more in that

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15 minute chat than you'll learn in the whole

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interview process for that company. It will give

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you an idea of the culture, what's the team like,

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what's the structure like, what is it actually

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like to work there day to day. So I think it

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is unbelievably effective. And it's actually

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the only way that I have secured the jobs I have

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the companies that I've worked at. And I think

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in most cases, when you do that, the companies

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say to themselves, right, well, I want our poll.

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We're very proactive in reaching out to the team.

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They clearly want to work here. They want to

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understand our culture. They want to meet their

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potential peers. And that will only put you in

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good light. at the end of the process when they're

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trying to decide between you and another candidate,

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right? Yeah. And one thing I'd add to that from

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a sales perspective particularly is that random

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person you reach out to, they could be smashing

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all the numbers. They could be having the time

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of their life. And another person who could be

00:13:38.389 --> 00:13:41.120
on the very same team. could be having a terrible

00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:43.700
time and they might be not closing anything.

00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:45.779
And the view of the company is going to be very

00:13:45.779 --> 00:13:47.600
different depending on which one of these that

00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:50.980
you actually speak with. So what's important

00:13:50.980 --> 00:13:54.500
then is to look to understand what's behind that

00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:57.299
success or what's behind that failure. If you're

00:13:57.299 --> 00:13:59.139
chatting to somebody and realise, oh, it sounds

00:13:59.139 --> 00:14:01.600
like you don't do very much prospecting and it

00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:04.840
sounds like you're not really putting the effort

00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.059
in, then you can start to kind of go, OK, well

00:14:07.059 --> 00:14:09.299
that's doesn't feel like that would be me. However,

00:14:09.460 --> 00:14:11.139
you might find out that, yeah, they've been given

00:14:11.139 --> 00:14:14.000
a patch that is absolutely awful. And that's

00:14:14.000 --> 00:14:15.860
something that you need to be mindful of at a

00:14:15.860 --> 00:14:18.440
later stage when you're negotiating that maybe

00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.000
you don't want to be selling to the fintech industry

00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:24.700
on the outskirts of Sheffield. You know, it's

00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:26.580
going to be more successful if you're doing that

00:14:26.580 --> 00:14:29.220
in London. So again, there are these little things

00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:32.980
to be to watch out for and. Real, real important

00:14:32.980 --> 00:14:35.620
is to, to find the facts behind what people are

00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:37.980
saying or to find something tangible because,

00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:41.019
you know, we can get carried away in sales. Everything

00:14:41.019 --> 00:14:43.600
can be extreme. It's awesome. It's awful. But

00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:46.820
again, what's real. So just watch out for that.

00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:51.860
Yeah, no, absolutely. The opening of your book

00:14:51.860 --> 00:14:55.299
really caught my eye because it mentions tennis

00:14:55.299 --> 00:15:00.669
and I play a lot of tennis, Paul. If two tennis

00:15:00.669 --> 00:15:03.370
players of similar age, ability and experience

00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:07.309
are playing a match and one puts time in to prepare,

00:15:07.490 --> 00:15:10.690
but the other doesn't, what is likely to happen?

00:15:11.330 --> 00:15:12.950
Tell me more about that Paul and what you mean

00:15:12.950 --> 00:15:18.929
by that. What it comes down to is experience

00:15:18.929 --> 00:15:24.429
is a great thing, but it can breed. It can cause

00:15:24.429 --> 00:15:28.250
people to not put the effort in to not prepare.

00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.340
So you can be talented, you can be experienced

00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:34.620
and you can know exactly what what to do. But

00:15:34.620 --> 00:15:36.919
if you haven't prepared for the nuance of the

00:15:36.919 --> 00:15:39.679
situation that's in front of you, you are leaving

00:15:39.679 --> 00:15:42.259
things to chance. You were hoping things go well

00:15:42.259 --> 00:15:45.100
and that puts you at risk of just being caught

00:15:45.100 --> 00:15:48.700
out. And that is really what I'm trying to delve

00:15:48.700 --> 00:15:51.799
into there that it can be very, very tight. And

00:15:51.799 --> 00:15:55.700
if people are if you're going for a role. The

00:15:55.700 --> 00:15:57.700
odds are you're in a process with four or five

00:15:57.700 --> 00:16:01.740
other people and all of them are probably good

00:16:01.740 --> 00:16:04.500
enough to do the position. Most of them probably

00:16:04.500 --> 00:16:08.080
have the skills to deliver. So it's not a case

00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.559
of finding out if you can do it or if you can't.

00:16:11.740 --> 00:16:14.039
The hiring manager will want to find out who

00:16:14.039 --> 00:16:17.200
is the person who can do this best or who is

00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:20.559
the person who I don't have to worry about least,

00:16:20.659 --> 00:16:24.230
who's actually going to deliver. The nuance there

00:16:24.230 --> 00:16:26.409
is if you just go in and just have the conversation

00:16:26.409 --> 00:16:28.950
and leave it to chance, you may show yourself

00:16:28.950 --> 00:16:31.009
in the best light and you may be very successful,

00:16:31.049 --> 00:16:34.450
you may go on and get offered the role. But if

00:16:34.450 --> 00:16:36.250
someone else is more prepared and they've done

00:16:36.250 --> 00:16:37.850
what we've mentioned a few minutes ago, that

00:16:37.850 --> 00:16:39.990
they've identified some cultural gaps, they've

00:16:39.990 --> 00:16:41.830
identified a few things that could be improved

00:16:41.830 --> 00:16:44.799
upon, well then they are going to just edge you

00:16:44.799 --> 00:16:47.779
when it comes to that interview process. And

00:16:47.779 --> 00:16:49.620
this is something I see time and time again when

00:16:49.620 --> 00:16:51.240
we're looking to prospect, when we're looking

00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.139
to sell, that it is fine margins and there's

00:16:54.139 --> 00:16:56.740
not much difference between making a decision

00:16:56.740 --> 00:16:59.039
that goes in your favor versus a decision that

00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.700
goes against you. But then it comes down to that

00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:03.820
little bit of preparation that just gets you

00:17:03.820 --> 00:17:07.589
ahead. Absolutely. And I can think of so many

00:17:07.589 --> 00:17:10.509
situations during my career where we had candidates

00:17:10.509 --> 00:17:14.769
at the latter end of the interview process and

00:17:14.769 --> 00:17:18.289
we're trying to decide between maybe a more experienced

00:17:18.289 --> 00:17:21.349
candidate and a less experienced candidate. But

00:17:21.349 --> 00:17:23.450
in a lot of the cases, we take the less experienced

00:17:23.450 --> 00:17:25.390
person because they actually sell themselves

00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:28.809
better in the interview and felt they could do

00:17:28.809 --> 00:17:30.970
a better job based on how they sold themselves.

00:17:32.220 --> 00:17:34.940
And sometimes when you have a candidate with

00:17:34.940 --> 00:17:40.920
a lot of experience, they can expect to go into

00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:45.160
an interview and maybe prepare less because they're

00:17:45.160 --> 00:17:49.220
more experienced. But actually, they have to

00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:52.160
come to a common playing field with every candidate

00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:55.380
in being that they have to prepare just as much

00:17:55.380 --> 00:17:59.220
as anyone else, even though they have more experience.

00:17:59.500 --> 00:18:02.079
So I can think of many different situations.

00:18:02.619 --> 00:18:05.640
In tech sales here in particular, there's something

00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:08.519
really important I want to call out is you are

00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.839
being judged in an interview. You are being scored.

00:18:12.380 --> 00:18:15.180
There will be a stack rank and there will be

00:18:15.180 --> 00:18:17.980
criteria. There will be specific skills or be

00:18:17.980 --> 00:18:22.819
specific experience and there will also be certain

00:18:22.819 --> 00:18:25.740
traits that they are looking for. And if you

00:18:25.740 --> 00:18:27.940
have an idea of what those skills, experience

00:18:27.940 --> 00:18:30.880
or traits actually are in advance, then you could

00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.640
prepare to have answers that will exemplify that

00:18:33.640 --> 00:18:36.740
when you're having the conversation versus just

00:18:36.740 --> 00:18:39.559
going in and speaking to it. And interestingly,

00:18:40.059 --> 00:18:43.200
I was working with a client only last week and

00:18:43.200 --> 00:18:45.799
we interviewed four people in a row and we have

00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:47.559
our criteria. We know what we're looking for.

00:18:47.980 --> 00:18:51.819
And on paper, the first two highly experienced

00:18:51.819 --> 00:18:54.849
have been there. really looked like they should

00:18:54.849 --> 00:18:56.589
have knocked out of the park. And to your point,

00:18:56.670 --> 00:18:59.829
Don, they showed up not prepared. They really

00:18:59.829 --> 00:19:03.250
weren't ready for it. And they scored very, very

00:19:03.250 --> 00:19:06.009
low versus the other two candidates who had done

00:19:06.009 --> 00:19:07.890
a little bit of networking, who had really made

00:19:07.890 --> 00:19:10.829
the effort. And they were outscored by people

00:19:10.829 --> 00:19:14.410
who were less experienced than them. But that's

00:19:14.410 --> 00:19:15.750
what it comes down to. And when you're trying

00:19:15.750 --> 00:19:17.470
to run a process, and particularly on the other

00:19:17.470 --> 00:19:19.559
side, The other person is trying to run a fair

00:19:19.559 --> 00:19:21.619
process and they're documenting the process and

00:19:21.619 --> 00:19:23.599
they have to be able to show that they have hired

00:19:23.599 --> 00:19:27.960
fairly to maybe to their board or just for general

00:19:27.960 --> 00:19:31.279
reasons anyway. That is also happening. So you've

00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:32.900
got to be mindful of that when you're applying

00:19:32.900 --> 00:19:37.940
for this role. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny.

00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:41.660
I think sometimes when you have someone at the

00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:46.440
really senior level. They are very used to being

00:19:46.440 --> 00:19:49.640
on the other side of the desk where they're interviewing

00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:52.599
the candidate. But actually when it shifts and

00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:57.700
they become the candidate, preparation maybe

00:19:57.700 --> 00:19:59.940
sometimes isn't as good as someone with less

00:19:59.940 --> 00:20:02.819
experience as you just kind of testified there

00:20:02.819 --> 00:20:07.259
too. So yeah, it comes back to that preparation

00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:12.319
piece and it's so, so key. Paul, what are the

00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:15.900
common mistakes people make when selling themselves

00:20:15.900 --> 00:20:18.700
in an interview and how can they be avoided?

00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:24.420
The common mistake I see is people don't know

00:20:24.420 --> 00:20:27.099
what to share about themselves and they feel

00:20:27.099 --> 00:20:30.799
they should try to share everything. And you're

00:20:30.799 --> 00:20:32.619
not going to do that. And then the other mistake

00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:35.740
I see is they're not prepared for the questions

00:20:35.740 --> 00:20:39.339
which we know are going to come along. And I

00:20:39.339 --> 00:20:42.640
guess if we tackle the first one head on, You

00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:44.720
want to be the number one undeniable candidate

00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:47.119
for this role. Well, one of the three reasons

00:20:47.119 --> 00:20:49.799
why you should be hired ahead of other people

00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:52.400
in the process. What can you bring to the table

00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:55.220
which others can't? What can you bring that's

00:20:55.220 --> 00:20:58.500
going to make you stand out? And being prepared

00:20:58.500 --> 00:21:02.079
to show that whether it is maybe it's a specific

00:21:02.079 --> 00:21:04.299
experience that you know how to run enterprise

00:21:04.299 --> 00:21:07.099
deals, maybe you're elite when it comes to prospecting,

00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:09.700
maybe you're fantastic at running events. Maybe

00:21:09.700 --> 00:21:12.059
you've got mutual close plans that are exceptional

00:21:12.059 --> 00:21:14.339
and you never get ghosted. Whatever you think

00:21:14.339 --> 00:21:18.519
those reasons are for you to be picked, making

00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:21.099
sure that you're planning to hit upon it and

00:21:21.099 --> 00:21:23.339
mentioning them at the beginning, throughout

00:21:23.339 --> 00:21:25.440
weaving them into answers and then summarizing

00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:28.880
things at the end. And when I talk about questions

00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:31.160
that you know you're going to get for working

00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.279
in sales, we know we should expect to get asked

00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:38.349
questions about our previous role. what our attainment

00:21:38.349 --> 00:21:41.369
was like to be able to explain how we got to

00:21:41.369 --> 00:21:43.690
our number, what that meant from a comp plan,

00:21:43.990 --> 00:21:46.150
from a structure, from a commission standpoint,

00:21:46.150 --> 00:21:48.569
because people will dig into those questions

00:21:48.569 --> 00:21:50.690
when they want to see what you're really that

00:21:50.690 --> 00:21:54.069
you're really telling the truth effectively and

00:21:54.069 --> 00:21:57.109
having a few deals that you can articulate that

00:21:57.109 --> 00:22:00.130
are maybe relevant to this, this hiring manager

00:22:00.130 --> 00:22:06.279
itself. And that is the key piece is that little

00:22:06.279 --> 00:22:08.480
bit of preparation, even just asking yourself

00:22:08.480 --> 00:22:10.279
those questions. What are the three things that

00:22:10.279 --> 00:22:12.400
I want to showcase in this interview? What are

00:22:12.400 --> 00:22:14.200
the one or two deals I want to speak about? What

00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:15.759
is the one or two things I bring to this team

00:22:15.759 --> 00:22:19.420
that nobody else can? And knowing that this is

00:22:19.420 --> 00:22:20.920
what you're going to share in the interview.

00:22:22.079 --> 00:22:25.460
Yeah, like I always say this to anyone that's

00:22:25.460 --> 00:22:28.460
preparing for interview, is that every candidate

00:22:28.460 --> 00:22:30.380
when they're asked to tell me about your self

00:22:30.380 --> 00:22:34.549
question, You know, my name is Owen, I've got

00:22:34.549 --> 00:22:36.910
a master's, I've got a degree, I worked here

00:22:36.910 --> 00:22:39.970
and here and here, but actually the interviewer

00:22:39.970 --> 00:22:42.230
has already read your CV. They know you've got

00:22:42.230 --> 00:22:43.809
all that, so you've kind of wasted a bit of time

00:22:43.809 --> 00:22:46.509
in the interview telling them that. I love your

00:22:46.509 --> 00:22:48.670
points. You know, what are the three reasons?

00:22:48.849 --> 00:22:52.009
What are my three unique selling points to get

00:22:52.009 --> 00:22:55.329
this job over candidates two, three, and four

00:22:55.329 --> 00:22:58.849
and five or whoever else is in the process? So

00:22:58.849 --> 00:23:01.779
when you hear that, question in an interview

00:23:01.779 --> 00:23:04.059
and you've prepared well and you know the three

00:23:04.059 --> 00:23:07.319
reasons and your unique selling point. You know,

00:23:07.640 --> 00:23:09.200
the bell should be going off in your head like

00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:11.579
this is my opportunity to tell them why I'm different

00:23:11.579 --> 00:23:16.420
than everyone else and why they should hire me.

00:23:16.819 --> 00:23:22.119
So I absolutely love that. Fantastic. And are

00:23:22.119 --> 00:23:25.880
there any techniques about so sometimes I get

00:23:25.880 --> 00:23:30.180
this question a lot as well, but If you're asked

00:23:30.180 --> 00:23:33.299
a question in an interview that is maybe a very

00:23:33.299 --> 00:23:38.200
tough question and you find it hard to answer

00:23:38.200 --> 00:23:41.000
it, are there any techniques for handling tough

00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:43.059
questions or objections during an interview poll?

00:23:44.500 --> 00:23:47.759
Well, the first one is it's a bit of a sales

00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:51.019
technique in some respects, but clarifying that

00:23:51.019 --> 00:23:55.200
you've understood the question. So if you're

00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:57.640
asked a question and It's a little ambiguous

00:23:57.640 --> 00:24:01.420
or you think it's a little bit tricky clarifying

00:24:01.420 --> 00:24:04.119
the specific question. So what do you mean by

00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:06.599
that? And what aspect of such and such would

00:24:06.599 --> 00:24:08.619
you like me to delve into a little bit deeper?

00:24:09.000 --> 00:24:11.720
And also be mindful that sometimes you're going

00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:14.539
to get asked a question that makes no sense because

00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:18.019
in sales we want to see how you communicate.

00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:20.539
We want to see if you're brave enough to tackle

00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:22.900
that head on. And then other times you're going

00:24:22.900 --> 00:24:26.130
to get asked questions. that are going to try

00:24:26.130 --> 00:24:28.210
to provoke you, that are going to try to elicit

00:24:28.210 --> 00:24:30.490
a response to make you lose your cool. So be

00:24:30.490 --> 00:24:32.150
mindful that some of these questions that you're

00:24:32.150 --> 00:24:34.769
being asked are part of a playbook and are part

00:24:34.769 --> 00:24:39.130
of something which is a bit of fun, but it is

00:24:39.130 --> 00:24:41.329
really testing your mettle in those difficult

00:24:41.329 --> 00:24:45.990
scenarios. And then it comes down to. You've

00:24:45.990 --> 00:24:49.029
clarified it. Breaking it down, if that question

00:24:49.029 --> 00:24:50.769
be breaking down into two or three components

00:24:50.769 --> 00:24:53.690
and then giving an answer, absolutely key and

00:24:53.690 --> 00:24:56.450
giving I shouldn't need to say this, but giving

00:24:56.450 --> 00:24:58.670
an honest answer. We want to be speaking honestly

00:24:58.670 --> 00:25:01.650
in this interaction and we never want to say

00:25:01.650 --> 00:25:04.250
those words well to tell the truth because then

00:25:04.250 --> 00:25:05.769
it infers that the rest of what you were saying

00:25:05.769 --> 00:25:08.029
might have been a little bit embellished. But

00:25:08.029 --> 00:25:10.710
again, speak into something that's real because

00:25:10.710 --> 00:25:13.349
if they're a strong interviewer and you are weak

00:25:13.349 --> 00:25:15.539
at answering that. They're going to jump on that

00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:17.859
a second and a third and a fourth time. So if

00:25:17.859 --> 00:25:19.960
you haven't been really, really honest, you're

00:25:19.960 --> 00:25:22.160
going to get yourself into a circle of lies and

00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:24.400
you could really mess up the interview from some

00:25:24.400 --> 00:25:26.900
silly question, which probably wouldn't make

00:25:26.900 --> 00:25:29.700
a big impact if you do the job or not. So that

00:25:29.700 --> 00:25:32.240
will be the big tip that I'd be given there when

00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:34.359
it comes to those those challenging questions.

00:25:34.940 --> 00:25:37.039
And you should expect them. They're going to

00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.039
come along. Yeah, and I think using silence as

00:25:41.039 --> 00:25:43.450
well is really important in an interview. If

00:25:43.450 --> 00:25:46.190
you receive a tough question, don't kind of blurt

00:25:46.190 --> 00:25:48.789
out the answer straight away, because usually

00:25:48.789 --> 00:25:51.450
it's going to be the wrong one. You know, take

00:25:51.450 --> 00:25:53.569
some time, take a sip of water, say something

00:25:53.569 --> 00:25:56.769
like that's an interesting question to your point.

00:25:57.650 --> 00:26:00.190
You know, ask to clarify the question as well.

00:26:00.190 --> 00:26:02.910
That gives you also a bit of time to think about

00:26:02.910 --> 00:26:07.569
what the answer is. Since we met Paul over the

00:26:07.569 --> 00:26:09.289
last couple of weeks, I've noticed something

00:26:09.289 --> 00:26:12.329
about you, right? You're a great storyteller.

00:26:13.349 --> 00:26:16.710
So when I was at your One Day Elite Account Executive

00:26:16.710 --> 00:26:20.410
Accelerator, you know, that was your technique

00:26:20.410 --> 00:26:24.049
throughout the day. And I really love that. But

00:26:24.049 --> 00:26:26.589
I also believe that in an interview situation,

00:26:27.289 --> 00:26:32.890
storytelling is a lot more engaging and, you

00:26:32.890 --> 00:26:35.450
know, keeps the person's attention a lot more

00:26:35.450 --> 00:26:39.289
as well. What role does storytelling play in

00:26:39.289 --> 00:26:44.960
selling yourself? Well, storytelling, it's interesting

00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:46.819
that you mention that, because that's not something

00:26:46.819 --> 00:26:48.980
I would purposefully do. I guess that's just

00:26:48.980 --> 00:26:52.119
something I'm doing a bit more naturally. But

00:26:52.119 --> 00:26:54.500
it comes down to if you're telling a story, it's

00:26:54.500 --> 00:26:57.740
about something that's real. And that then makes

00:26:57.740 --> 00:27:00.160
it very, very easy to have that conversation.

00:27:00.819 --> 00:27:03.660
And the key piece is not to go into too much

00:27:03.660 --> 00:27:05.759
detail to know the key points that you want to

00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:09.140
hit upon and then you know, get to the point

00:27:09.140 --> 00:27:11.940
of it. So storytelling, look, as we all know,

00:27:12.160 --> 00:27:15.359
will make it easier for a point to land, will

00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.380
make it easier for something to resonate. And

00:27:18.380 --> 00:27:20.640
if you're if you're working in sales and going

00:27:20.640 --> 00:27:22.019
in for a sales interview, you should be able

00:27:22.019 --> 00:27:24.039
to tell the story of a deal. You should be able

00:27:24.039 --> 00:27:27.059
to tell the story of a promotion that got you

00:27:27.059 --> 00:27:29.859
into a certain role and you should be prepared

00:27:29.859 --> 00:27:32.720
to do that. So for that, I think it is pretty

00:27:32.720 --> 00:27:37.819
crucial. And if we think about in sales, We don't

00:27:37.819 --> 00:27:40.059
really want to talk about our product and all

00:27:40.059 --> 00:27:41.759
the features and everything that it does. We

00:27:41.759 --> 00:27:43.680
want to speak about the outcomes that people

00:27:43.680 --> 00:27:45.519
are going to achieve. We want to speak about

00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:47.400
the outcomes that existing customers have achieved

00:27:47.400 --> 00:27:50.940
and have them aligned with problems and outcomes

00:27:50.940 --> 00:27:52.539
that the person that we're speaking with are

00:27:52.539 --> 00:27:55.839
aspiring to go and achieve as well. Interview

00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:57.940
is very, very similar. We're speaking with a

00:27:57.940 --> 00:27:59.700
hiring manager, maybe one or two other people

00:27:59.700 --> 00:28:03.579
there. Put yourself into that role. Put yourself

00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:06.690
in the position of doing that job. and speak

00:28:06.690 --> 00:28:09.630
about what you would bring to the role, what

00:28:09.630 --> 00:28:13.269
you think you might change. And even projecting

00:28:13.269 --> 00:28:16.910
yourself into that role projects you in the role

00:28:16.910 --> 00:28:19.869
for that person that you're speaking to. So an

00:28:19.869 --> 00:28:22.450
example of is, well, look, just imagine if I

00:28:22.450 --> 00:28:25.950
join you for H2 and you're going to have your

00:28:25.950 --> 00:28:28.009
event in September, what it would be like if

00:28:28.009 --> 00:28:33.329
we were to run a breakfast meetup before the

00:28:33.329 --> 00:28:35.490
event itself. And we got some customers together

00:28:35.490 --> 00:28:38.670
and we could do that in this place. Small little

00:28:38.670 --> 00:28:40.930
things, dropping it in and making it real, I

00:28:40.930 --> 00:28:43.349
think is really, really key. But then pulling

00:28:43.349 --> 00:28:46.029
that back to a story that, well, I did that before

00:28:46.029 --> 00:28:47.950
and it was really, really useful. It did X, Y

00:28:47.950 --> 00:28:51.049
and Z. So yeah, don't go too long on the stories.

00:28:51.170 --> 00:28:54.250
I guess it's probably the key takeaway. Absolutely.

00:28:54.549 --> 00:28:58.509
Short and concise and I actually love that you

00:28:58.509 --> 00:29:01.930
said there, like in selling, it's not about what

00:29:01.930 --> 00:29:04.650
the, your client doesn't want to hear about the

00:29:04.650 --> 00:29:06.509
features. They want to hear about the benefits.

00:29:06.970 --> 00:29:09.210
And actually when you're in an interview situation,

00:29:10.130 --> 00:29:12.269
you have a lot of features, but actually your

00:29:12.269 --> 00:29:13.329
interviewer doesn't want to hear the features.

00:29:13.369 --> 00:29:15.430
He wants to hear the benefits that you can give

00:29:15.430 --> 00:29:18.349
him or her. So it's the exact same way in an

00:29:18.349 --> 00:29:22.069
interview. I absolutely love that. What's your

00:29:22.069 --> 00:29:25.250
top tip, Paul, for anyone looking for a job right

00:29:25.250 --> 00:29:30.940
now? So my top tip for someone looking for a

00:29:30.940 --> 00:29:36.960
job is find the company and find the culture

00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:41.140
that you think would make you be extremely successful.

00:29:41.460 --> 00:29:42.940
Don't worry about the fact that they have an

00:29:42.940 --> 00:29:45.299
open roller if they don't. And the reason for

00:29:45.299 --> 00:29:49.480
that is if you think of a sales team, a sales

00:29:49.480 --> 00:29:51.960
team is very like a sports team. So if we look

00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:54.099
at England at the moment, Manchester City are

00:29:54.099 --> 00:29:57.470
by far the best team over there. And they have

00:29:57.470 --> 00:30:00.410
a real blend of experience. So the Kevin De Bruyne

00:30:00.410 --> 00:30:02.549
is the ones who've been around a long time. Then

00:30:02.549 --> 00:30:04.410
they've got some players who are in their pump,

00:30:04.609 --> 00:30:07.210
the Rodries who are 26, 27. And then they've

00:30:07.210 --> 00:30:09.470
got the younger players coming through. So the

00:30:09.470 --> 00:30:11.250
likes of Phil Foden, whatever, who are in their

00:30:11.250 --> 00:30:14.250
early 20s. If sales managers who are managing

00:30:14.250 --> 00:30:17.119
the sales team. The best ones do it the very

00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:18.980
same way. They've got some people who've just

00:30:18.980 --> 00:30:20.880
joined a team who are just getting up to speed,

00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:22.740
then they've got some people who are there for

00:30:22.740 --> 00:30:24.859
a decent amount of time and they are really delivering

00:30:24.859 --> 00:30:26.559
and they've got some people who are going to

00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:29.759
be leaving the team. And if you are managing

00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:31.980
any great team, you will always have a pipeline

00:30:31.980 --> 00:30:35.059
of people that you know are going to become available

00:30:35.059 --> 00:30:37.500
in the next three, six, nine months to fill the

00:30:37.500 --> 00:30:39.500
spaces of those people that are going to move

00:30:39.500 --> 00:30:42.579
on. So reach out, find out the companies that

00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:45.680
are the best fit, find out the culture that you

00:30:45.680 --> 00:30:48.559
think you would thrive in, and then reach out

00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:51.819
to the managers of those teams, look to get some

00:30:51.819 --> 00:30:53.720
coffees with them, look to meet up with them,

00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:56.960
whatever way you can get some time, and then

00:30:56.960 --> 00:30:59.099
establish who looks like they're going to have

00:30:59.099 --> 00:31:01.299
a position coming up in maybe three months, six

00:31:01.299 --> 00:31:05.180
months. And then you make yourself a front runner

00:31:05.180 --> 00:31:07.059
for that. Now, I know some people will be saying,

00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:08.460
well, that doesn't help me. I need to get a job

00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:11.839
right now. But this does help you get into the

00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:13.799
right place where you can have that story of

00:31:13.799 --> 00:31:15.619
your career, those three, four or five years

00:31:15.619 --> 00:31:18.519
where you achieve exceptional success. And then

00:31:18.519 --> 00:31:20.319
that sets you up to go and do whatever you want

00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:25.660
after that. Absolutely. Yeah, I think you have

00:31:25.660 --> 00:31:28.380
to have that mindset that the coffee you're having

00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:32.579
now with your potential manager may not produce

00:31:32.579 --> 00:31:35.039
a result until three months or six months or

00:31:35.039 --> 00:31:39.359
a year down the line. But it probably will produce

00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:42.980
something. So, yeah, I totally agree with you,

00:31:42.980 --> 00:31:46.180
I think. The phrase I like to coin on that is

00:31:46.180 --> 00:31:48.980
it's a chatter view. Yeah, it's a chat, but it's

00:31:48.980 --> 00:31:50.519
a little bit of a mini interview because if you

00:31:50.519 --> 00:31:52.539
don't get on or something's not there, it's not

00:31:52.539 --> 00:31:55.720
going to go forward. So taking that little bit

00:31:55.720 --> 00:31:58.819
serious and also signposting the fact that you're

00:31:58.819 --> 00:32:01.559
looking to get into this role, you're looking

00:32:01.559 --> 00:32:03.359
to get into this team and looking to get their

00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:06.200
opinion. And one more thing that works really

00:32:06.200 --> 00:32:09.900
well is asking them what they think you should

00:32:09.900 --> 00:32:12.380
improve or what they think somebody who is aspiring

00:32:12.380 --> 00:32:15.539
to go into this role should add to their arsenal

00:32:15.539 --> 00:32:18.920
based on your experience. The person who tells

00:32:18.920 --> 00:32:20.619
you that is not going to remember what they told

00:32:20.619 --> 00:32:22.299
you in a month or two months or three months

00:32:22.299 --> 00:32:24.700
time, but if you can secure another follow -up

00:32:24.700 --> 00:32:27.019
meeting with them, and you can turn down and

00:32:27.019 --> 00:32:28.599
say, remember that thing you told me? Yeah, I

00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:31.460
went and did it. They'll then remember it, they'll

00:32:31.460 --> 00:32:33.619
be blown away, and they'll see you as somebody

00:32:33.619 --> 00:32:35.799
who takes action, as somebody who's coachable,

00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:38.200
and ultimately in sales, that's what we want.

00:32:38.339 --> 00:32:41.319
People who take action, people who are coachable,

00:32:41.500 --> 00:32:44.890
so that we can really improve them. much faster

00:32:44.890 --> 00:32:46.930
than others who are maybe a little against that

00:32:46.930 --> 00:32:49.170
little set in their ways. So this is something

00:32:49.170 --> 00:32:50.609
I could keep chatting and chatting about, but

00:32:50.609 --> 00:32:52.109
on a feeling we're probably nearer thereabouts

00:32:52.109 --> 00:32:56.349
on time. No, absolutely. And yeah, it's someone

00:32:56.349 --> 00:32:59.890
who goes above and beyond, you know, and they

00:32:59.890 --> 00:33:01.470
were always the best candidates in my career

00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:05.769
that I hired. A chatter view. That's that's a

00:33:05.769 --> 00:33:09.910
great one. Love that. Any any podcast or book

00:33:09.910 --> 00:33:14.579
recommendations Paul? Two book recommendations.

00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.539
The first one I would say is The Alter Ego Effect

00:33:19.539 --> 00:33:21.539
by Todd Herman, who I mentioned a little bit

00:33:21.539 --> 00:33:26.799
earlier. And if you are feeling a little bit

00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.160
like an imposter or you're feeling that you maybe

00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.140
don't have the confidence to go for the role

00:33:31.140 --> 00:33:35.000
or you're unsure of yourself, this book is a

00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.319
great way to help you build out the persona.

00:33:38.750 --> 00:33:41.150
of the person that we needed to be successful

00:33:41.150 --> 00:33:45.390
in that role. And then you can go in and perform

00:33:45.390 --> 00:33:49.130
and achieve your best by acting as that persona

00:33:49.130 --> 00:33:51.609
would. And The Alter Ego Effect is a fantastic

00:33:51.609 --> 00:33:54.130
book which really breaks that down and makes

00:33:54.130 --> 00:33:57.650
that easy for you to go and do. And the other

00:33:57.650 --> 00:33:59.710
book I'm going to call out is my own. So I'm

00:33:59.710 --> 00:34:01.710
going to say The Work Before The Work, The Hidden

00:34:01.710 --> 00:34:04.009
Habits of Elite Sales Professionals Used to Outperform

00:34:04.009 --> 00:34:07.269
the Competition. It's available on Amazon and

00:34:07.289 --> 00:34:10.769
all the online book retailers. And one third

00:34:10.769 --> 00:34:13.489
of that book is dedicated to helping you prepare

00:34:13.489 --> 00:34:17.349
to get promoted. So if you are going after an

00:34:17.349 --> 00:34:19.750
account executive role or a sales leadership

00:34:19.750 --> 00:34:22.110
role, there's a lot in there that will really

00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:25.849
help you prepare and be able to tackle that head

00:34:25.849 --> 00:34:28.070
on and build out that promotion campaign that

00:34:28.070 --> 00:34:30.929
makes you a lot more certain of getting promoted

00:34:30.929 --> 00:34:33.380
versus Just leaving the chance, just leaving

00:34:33.380 --> 00:34:35.639
it to hope, just leaving it to look. So yeah,

00:34:35.639 --> 00:34:39.500
they will be the two go -to. Fantastic, Paul.

00:34:39.500 --> 00:34:41.699
It's been great having you on. Thank you for

00:34:41.699 --> 00:34:43.800
sharing all your insights and coming on the podcast.

00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:46.400
Thanks very much. I'm looking forward to the

00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:48.860
next time we chat. Thank you for listening to

00:34:48.860 --> 00:34:51.480
The Interview Expert. Make sure to check out

00:34:51.480 --> 00:34:54.820
our website, yourhire .ie, where you can subscribe

00:34:54.820 --> 00:34:57.360
to the show and also find out more interview

00:34:57.360 --> 00:35:00.030
tips and tricks. While you're at it, if you found

00:35:00.030 --> 00:35:02.309
value in this show, we'd appreciate a rating

00:35:02.309 --> 00:35:04.610
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00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:06.389
tell a friend about the show, that would help

00:35:06.389 --> 00:35:09.550
us out too. Owen Murray is available for private

00:35:09.550 --> 00:35:12.389
coaching. See our website for details at yourhire

00:35:12.389 --> 00:35:16.489
.ie. Until next time, do good, feel good and

00:35:16.489 --> 00:35:16.869
be good.